So, after partaking in one of the most trainwrecky, venom filled nasty threads in recent memory, I decided to put the subject to my guests Saturday as a conversation starter. (They had no choice, I was feeding them and they had to participate MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!)
Is a decline in good manners necessarily a bad thing for society? Can a refusal to accept social mores and the rituals that are considered “common courtesy” change societal imbalances?
It was once considered “not our place to interfere in a parent’s discipline.” Now I wouldn’t hesitate to contact social services if I had good reason to believe a parent was abusing their child.
I once had my mouth washed out for calling a friend of my parents by his first name. “That is Mr. Smith to you, miss!” It wasn’t done.
The consensus of my friends came to this: On the one hand, challenging stereotypes and stagnant backward rituals which further entrench the gap between sexes/races/generations, etc. can only be a good thing. On the other hand…Not a day goes by in which we don’t see people delight in being rude to others. Intentionally exasperating and frustrating them. Not because they’re challenging long held societal niceties. No. For no other purpose than to be rude for rudeness’ sake. To enjoy inflicting an unpleasant emotion in someone else. It’s as if it gives the Rude Assed Bastardtm some sort of power trip.
I hate it. People seem to delight these days in being rude and inconsiderate. It’s all about them. Parents dont’t supervise their children, and other diners have an espensive meal ruined because of screaming brats. If you stop for a person to cross in a crosswalk, they’ll slow down to take just a much time as possible. Very few people bother to say “please” or “thank you” anymore.
Now that I’ve written that, I’m going to go out to dinner tonight and have a wonderful experience. It never fails. A friend and I were driving to the store one day bemoaning the lack of manners in today’s young people. We got to the store entrance and a young man stopped and held the door open for us.
I think it’s terrible. I believe it desensitizes us. It casts a pall over everyday interactions.
I think it’s difficult to determine what is discipline and what is abuse. You’ll get ten different answers from ten different people (barring the extreme cases). I have no qualms about correcting a kid under certain circumstances. When I was growing up, if you stepped out of line, you either heard it from the neighbor directly or they called your parents. I don’t see much of that anymore.
What if that’s not what’s happening? What if what we’re seeing is a change in social mores and rituals of common courtesy?
A lot of younger adults don’t like to be called “Mr. Smith” or “Mrs. Jones”- it makes them feel old (I’m in this camp- I feel really weird if anyone, even a kid, calls me Mrs. Neville). A common comment is, “When I hear that, I look to see if my father/mother is standing behind me”. By calling them by their first name, you’re including them in your group, rather than setting them apart as an older person.
There really is nothing inherently rude or polite about calling someone by their first name rather than “Mr. Smith” (different cultures have different rules on polite forms of address)- it’s just that different groups have different expectations, and younger people’s expectations and those of older people don’t always match. For the older people, it’s more insulting to have a child think they’re your equal, for the younger people, that’s preferable to having the child think of you as some mysterious other.
I don’t think good manners and courtesy will ever go out of style. If it does, I will weep for our future.
Being raised in the South, I was taught to call adults Miss/Mister First Name. It was quite acceptable, denoting respect and familiarity at the same time. I’ve taught the Ivykids to do the same.
You should hear them ordering food at a restuarant…please, thank you, etc. They are very courteous when answering the phone and everyone who meets them is very impressed.
Simple courtesy is cheap and easy. I hope it never goes away.
BTW, I hold the door open for anyone coming in behind me, regardless of gender.
Absolutely, and that was certainly a sticking point over dinner. We were trying to define where the line is drawn between “common courtesy” and “outmoded ritual”. I really should thank the people of that Pit thread, it made for a wonderful conversation.
Well, if you mean men standing when a woman enters a room, I don’t see much of that anymore, and if I did, I’d be a bit nonplussed. So I guess that’s “outmoded.”
There is a difference between changing and possibly loosening social mores, so that our society becomes less formal, and losing civility altogether. “Casual” does not mean “rude,” though many people seem to think so. There are good informal manners.
I do think that the loss of courtesy we seem to be witnessing is a terrible thing. To purposely hurt or infuriate others is not a laudable way to live.
I should add:
Some things we considered “outmoded rituals”
Ordering dinner for a lady. Thank you, I’m sure you think you’re being nice, but I know what I want to eat.
Having dinner on the table for your husband when he gets home from work. This one got laughs and was even ventured as a joke. “Woman, that meal had BETTER be ready when I get home.”
Dropping the honorific from an older (by a generation) person’s name, or the name of a casual acquaintance. This one was more difficult, but we decided that fewer and fewer people expect to be addressed as Mr. or Miss or Mrs. from another adult. From a child, it’s still polite to address an older person with the honorific.
Standing when a lady enters the room. I was only one of two people who even knew about it.
For me, I’m all about politeness and courtesy - but just the basics. The stuff that should never go away, which is:
Saying “Please” if you want something, and “Thank you” if you get it, and replying with “You’re welcome” if you are the giver. Being polite and un-assholic to people - vernacular like whether or not to call someone “Mrs.,” “Miss” or “Ms.” doesn’t matter to me.
A friend of mine has a five-year-old and I’m just now getting the girl to say her please’s and thank-you’s. When I corrected the daughter my friend got upset and was like “She’s only five! She doesn’t need to learn that yet.” My jaw about hit the floor - if I hadn’t used my pleases and thankyous when I was five I’d have gotten yelled at for sure - or possibly, if I was REALLY rude about it, a spanking. And I’m only 21, so I couldn’t understand how that could be considered old-fashioned.
I remember reading something once about one bad effect of the loss of basic manners is that it removes a way to defuse small conflicts between people. If an “excuse me” isn’t given when someone accidentally steps on someone else’s foot, then the step-ee is robbed of the ability to receive the step-er’s acknowledgement that they did a small injury to the step-ee, and to forgive them.
I think that may be really convoluted, but maybe you’ll understand what I mean regardless.
I think you need to define the new mores.
I am constantly reminding my kids to say please and thank you (and to shut off lights when not in use, but I digress).
I always hold the door for anyone; age/gender does not play into it.
On the rare occasions I am using Mass Transit, I will offer my seat to a senior, pregnant lady or adult struggling with little kids. I do not as a rule offer my seat to any female, especially a younger female. Not my standards and not sensible to me.
I would rather be called Jim then Mr. Exit. I still say sir or ma’am to anyone older than me until they let me know what I should call them.
I seem to be better than average at apologizing and meaning it.
As far as rudeness, I am an impatient jerk that will say something if you are holding up the checkout line by not packing your own bags, paying with checks in the Cash Only lanes or otherwise thinking your time is far more vital than mine and the other grumpy people in line.
What are the other rules of decorum, we should be following.
I don’t mean to make light of what was a ridiculous and demeaning expectation, if husbands ever actually did expect it. But apart from the sexist connotations, it doesn’t make any sense. Who on earth ever wanted to walk in the door after work and immediately have dinner? I sure don’t. I’d rather spend time relaxing with my wife, perhaps having a drink before dinner, and catching up on things with each other. Then I’m as likely to cook as she is, although we’ve been going out to eat a great deal due to my work schedule and other consideration.
Exactly. Excellent post, you make a very interesting point.
Society has changed some, and without a doubt some of the specific rituals associated with good manners have changed. But I don’t believe any fundamental change has occurred; I don’t think there are any more rude people or any fewer polite people nowadays than in previous years. Socrates said, “Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.” Plus ça change, eh?
For some reason, every generation is convinced that the younger generation is uniquely ill-mannered and disrespectful. Especially once you become middle-aged, at which point you promptly forget your youth and imagine that you were a perfect little angel - even if all your schoolteachers would disagree. Then you start talking about the kids these days. It’s a natural cycle.
The kids these days aren’t any different, on the whole, than they used to be. (Except they’re fatter.) Specifics have changed, but people haven’t, and some people have better manners than others - and we are way more likely to notice the assholes.
Nostalgia is, for some reason, inherent to the human condition. But, as we’re all seeing these days, it’s a terrible thing to base public policy on fantasies about the past.
Well, I don’t necessarily mean only children. I see just as much if not more rudeness from people of our generation. And to me, it seems to have something to do with a sense of being right all the time. I’m not sure when being wrong became a crime, but people will become completely unreasonable to defend an insupportable point. Any rudeness is forgiveable, so long as you win the argument.
That expectation did exist, and certainly no more than two generations ago. My grandmother had dinner on the table for my grandfather as soon as he walked through the door. It was expected and from what I’ve been told it was not an uncommon expectation. 1950’s sexual politics were very so completely removed from what they are now, the joke my friend made seems difficult to believe.
Oh, without a doubt. I heard the same thing from my parents. I’m sure it’s a never ending cycle. When I pick up my daughter or son from a sleepover or a party, if the hosting parent says “Thank you for bringing Godzilla/Rodan. They were so polite and helpful.” I always look over my shoulder to see who she’s talking to. Okay, not quite true. I go to great lengths to teach them manners. They’re just better about exhibiting them in public than at home.
I gotta say, naming them Godzilla and Rodan is probably not gonna help with that whole good manners cause.
But, yeah. I have developed a reflexive skepticism whenever people bring up anything that used to be better in the past (even though it’s certainly true that certain things used to be better) because it seems like people are very given to nostalgia and I think it effects people’s perceptions of the world a lot more than most people realize.
Okay, not quite true. I go to great lengths to teach them manners. They’re just better about exhibiting them in public than at home.