I find this entire line of reasoning flawed from start to finish. You have a “right” to be independant to the extent you are independant. I see nothing which proves to me that South Ossetia has any such right enforced through its own arms.
To get back to Bush, his presence at the Olympics didn’t have anything to do with anything, but his continued presence sends a strong message that we don’t care what is happening.
Could someone please explain to me why the Russians supporting a breakaway province of Georgia is somehow sending a message that it is wrong to split away from Russia? Besides we have the raw power to stop you, that is.
Europeans. Every fifty or so years they go nuts.
Oh, good, another Bush can’t do ANYTHING right thread, including watching his countrymates compete in the Olympics.
Truth of the matter is that Bush was in China as a diplomatic show of respect. Back in '84 when the Russians boycotted the Olympics we were hosting, the Russians put a lot of pressure on China to follow suit. Had they done so, it would have been a huge slap in the face to the United States, not to mention a threat to the Olympic games altogether. They chose to come, a brave and unexpected nod to the U.S.
Now that Beijing is hosting the Olympics, it’s time for the U.S. to return the favor. Having the sitting President of the United States (or any country, really) attend your shindig is a huge honor, whether you like the guy or not. So he’s there, paying homage to the Chinese for wiping the egg off our face when they could have rubbed it in. And so the circle is closed.
So, OPer he’s not asleep at the switch by attending the Olympics. He’s actually doing what he SHOULD be doing, which is promoting peace through diplomacy.
As far as Bush at the Olympics goes, I thought his comments to Bob Costas were pretty funny. I’m paraphrasing here.
Costas: “Are you going to check out any events?”
Bush: “Yeah, if you’d let me out of this studio.”
The sad fact is that Russia does not need to worry about how the US or President Bush would react.
Because Russia is not just supporting a breakaway province of Georgia, it’s bombing main cities in Georgia for several days now as punishment for, among many things, being pro-Western and trying to join NATO. Their support for South Ossetia has spread to the point of a military incursion on Georgia. They’re bombing pipelines, ignoring cease-fire requests, and this makes a lot of countries around Russia very nervous. Especially because Georgia is supposed to be a very close US ally, and the fear is that the message being sent is “Yes, you’re our ally, but we won’t do much about it.” Georgia hasn’t been clean in this situation. But Russia’s response hasn’t been proportional at all.
The message Russia is trying to send is that even being an ally of the US will not save you when Russia is angry. It has threatened military responses to Ukraine and Georgia’s attempts to join NATO, this is an example of that. Plus there is a lot of historical animosity towards the Georgians.
We have a GD thread going which discusses stuff like this.
And it’s egocentric to believe that America has any involvement at all in their civil war.
But we are involved–all of us are. The world has shrunk (hell, that started back in the time of the Industrial Revolution, if not earlier). We cannot afford to ignore, nor can UK, or the EU or China and the other Asian countries. And since Old Europe dipped its toes into every land mass on this planet, there are ties, both historic and political (as well as economic and even cultural) that bind us all together. No country has the luxury of saying “it’s none of our business” anymore.
The issue and the difficulty lie in just to what extent we should be involved. It’s not egocentrism so much as savvy and prudent practice, IMO.
Much as I dislike the guy’s politics, I think he’d do pretty well as King, at least in the way that the British treat their monarchy. A figurehead with no actual power, but mostly dedicated to cutting ribbons at museum openings and making appearances, thereby freeing up the President for actual work. Very down-home and folksy, which Americans really seem to like.
And blaming GWB for the trouble in Georgia is silly. What do you want him to do, bomb the Russian army? Stretch our troops in Iraq* past the breaking point to fight another war? Start WWIII? Making angry noises and taking the Georgians in Iraq home is about all he can do.
*I don’t really support the war in Iraq, but surely the only thing worse than being there is being there without even a fraction of the force and support they need.
While I agree, this is something which will be resolved over decades, if that. Any action undertaken now would be almost irrelevant, and there’s not much we can do anyhow.
Absolutely. My point was that isolationism is no longer a viable construct, if it ever was.
appleciders: I’d hope for a more culturally adept and learned figurehead myself, but you have a point.
OK, this is the Pit and I get to stir the coals.
You get to Bar-B-Q me.
That doesn’t mean that I can’t come back and pour sauce all over you and eat you for lunch.
First, I can’t believe that anyone outside of the Kremlin is making excuses for the Russians. These guys have always been the playground bullies and continue as such.
Second, isn’t the area where the problems originated part of Georgia, not part of Russia? Why is it Russia’s problem? Why are they interfering with Georgia and saw fit to expand the combat beyond the area of dispute?
Third, there are those with probably much more knowledge of the local situation than anyone on this board that don’t necessarily agree with the actions of the Russians. Today in the NY Times there was a leading editorial piece and an op-ed piece that should be enlightening. Here are the links:
Do you dare read them?
Fourth, to comment on an analogy that was made in this thread . . . What if the state of Chihuahua, MX wanted to secede and join the US? What if the US government was fomenting the problem by issuing US passports to residents of Chihuahua? So the Mexican government takes issue with the problem and tries to reign in their dissonants. The US government responds by bombing the shit out of Mexican installations and killing Mexicans outside of the state of Chihuahua. Where would you stand on this issue?
Fifth, anyone that thinks that wars just happen and are not planned is delusional. There is no coincidence that this erupted on the day the Olympics started. The press operates at 1/2 speed in August. They either play up one big story (like the Olympics) and/or glom onto a smaller story to get them into September. Just ask Gary Condit, Michael Jackson, John Edwards and a host of others. (Remember, Iraq invaded Kuwait in the first week of August thinking that they had the implicit approval of Washington and that they could get away with it.)
Sixth, there is enough diplomatic communication for Washington to know when stuff like this is brewing. The Bush Administration decided to take a pass and let it happen. They can issue all of the hollow statements that the naive will swallow and fall back on the defense that they were unaware and on vacation but that is total BS. The Bushies have themselves so deep in shit in Iraq that they can’t flex any muscle to any formidable power that wants to thumb their nose at them. That’s why a crap ass country like Iran can tell Bush to go fuck himself and he can’t do much about it other than issue statements.
This mess is total ineptitude on the part of the governing administration because of a long string of miscalculations. Bush came out of Harvard Business School that teaches (as we have learned at our peril, especially this year) that the next quarter statements (read: our bonus) is what it’s all about. The Russians are chess players, they look at least ten moves down the board. Guess who wins. The Chinese, they don’t care how long it takes, they just intend to come out ahead.
While that’s correct, it was the Georgians who precipitated the actual shooting. The Russians may have be prepared to take advantage of this, but the Georgians picked the time for their own purposes.
Bull. Cite?
When, precisely, did Georgia invade Russia?
As I asked, when, precisely, did Georgia invade Russia?
Neither South Ossetia nor Abkhazia are part of Russia, if that helps.
“Take a pass and let it happen”? What would you propose to do about the situation? In the same paragraph you criticize our involvement in Iraq and then suggest that we should’ve, what, rushed troops to the Caucuses “just in case”?
ETA:Frank, it is alleged that Russian “peacekeeping troops” were stationed in South Ossetia, and that the attacks on South Ossetia included the deaths of Russian “peacekeeping” troops, and further that South Ossetia is home to Russian citizens. Ergo, Russia’s actions were designed to be in retaliation to the attack on their people. Knowing that Russia has been intentionally sending passports to S Ossetia to make those people Russian citizens, their logic is somewhat flawed. But there it is.
Yeah, It’s all the fault of those Russian peacekeepers, for not letting the Georgians kill them.
Pardon me for thinking your question wasn’t merely an assholish attempt to blame everything on the Russians.
“Alleged”?
Quite. South Ossetia was an autonomous province before Georgia decided to unilaterally break that agreement in 1992. Now it breaks the treaty that ended the civil war in 1992 by rocketing and shelling the capital city and attacking Russian troops.
And people still think Georgia is the victim?
When a state shells its own people it forfeits its rights over them. Considering what America did to Fallujah etc, when it was the legal occupying power in Iraq, I’d say Georgia got over very lightly given the well-deserved reputation the Russian Army has for brutality.
The idiot running Georgia, frsh from his own sets of rigged elections, started a fight he was never going to win by a massive artillery and rocket attack on a city under the joint protection of Georgia and Russia by treaty.
Russia then destroyed his military and engaged in their own, by no means commensurate, attacks on civilian areas.
There are no white hats here. Just one bunch of savages getting a kicking from another bunch and the only reason we care is energy security. We side with brutal dictators all the way along the oil pipeline route, we don’t give a shit about democracy in those places so let’s not pretend we do here either.
And certainly let’s not pretend the Georgian regime is anything other than another bunch of stupid savages still living in the 19th century and fighting over pointless lines on a map.
The west, as we have demonstrated with our ‘liberal interventionism’ don’t give a toss about lines on a map either as in Kosovo and Iraq. Nor do we give a shit about democratically elected govts when, as in the case of Hamas, we don’t like the result.
It’s just bloody hypocritical to expect Russia to do anything but follow our own example when it comes to ruthlessly protecting its own interests.
The real question is who let the US supported, trained and equipped poodle slip the leash and attack an Alsatian? It should not have come as a surprise and I bet it didn’t. I bet the bunch of Bush incompetents thought it would all go swimmingly.
And if they didn’t know it was going to happen - when the Georgian military is swarming with hundreds of US ‘advisors’ and no doubt plenty of CIA as well, then why not?