It reminds of an old Doonesbury. Phred, as ambassor for Viet Nam is explaining to the UN why Viet Nam invaded Cambodia.
“We heard shots. We were curious.”
Classic.
They don’t play one another. I’m tempted to add “unfortunately” to the end of that sentence. That would be a heated match.
Bullshit ‘might makes right’ reasoning.
You know, tagos, I didn’t mention this in the other thread, but any time someone starts using the word ‘savages’ to dismiss one or both populations of nations in an argument, I tend to start seeing a nice late middle aged Brit with a white mustache sitting in late 19th century uniform, sipping his gin and tonic and talking about the bloody WOGs.
If you want to be a bigot on your own time, that’s fine, but I wish you wouldn’t do it in front of me. The biggest difference between you and these people is probably that your name doesn’t end in a vowel or a “v.”
You find another word for them then. We have the south ossetian and chechen militas raping and murdering. With georgians having done the same thing earlier.
Your delicate sensibilities not withstanding, savages they are. Fuck the lot of them.
Yes, and some of our (US) soldiers in Iraq apparently murdered Iraqis and tortured at Abu Ghurayb and so on and so forth. People, especially young men, tend to get, er, carried away in the heat of battle. I’m not saying that excuses it. I’m saying that this doesn’t justify labeling the entire population as savages.
Bush is certifiably insane. He has declared that the US will stand with its Georgian allies, and sends boats, planes and troops into the area in a grandstand play. Now, in response to this bullshit sabre rattling, Russia has said they will defend their turf however is necessary, effectively calling his bluff in a “come and get some, motherfucker” sort of way. So now what, George? Nuclear strike? Deployment of the last vestiges of our armed forces to take on a country with nuclear arms? Are you that criminally insane, or only mildly psychotic? This cocksucker can’t vacate the presidency soon enough to suit me.
Bush isn’t the insane one right now. It’s McCain who’s talking about going in full bore militarily, apparently by snapping his fingers and conjuring up a military that isn’t already deployed and/or exhausted.
The longer this shit goes on the more I stand by my original post.
I put it in the Pit in order to vent it may have more substance than I thought.
Megalomaniacs? The Chinese government is the largest institutional megalomaniac. Putin is the biggest individual megalomaniac. When Bush first met with Putin and acted like he was best buddies we all should have known that it was all over.
As I’ve commented on the GD thread on this general topic, Putin is what Bush wants to be when he grows up: a really tough dictator.
To the extent that this sentence even makes sense (and that isn’t a very extensive extent), are you essentially belittling Bush’s (in)ability to look into Putin’s soul?
The longer this shit goes on, the more half-baked the OP seems, particularly in light of the fact that when you return to defend it, your focus falls to the misdeeds of Russia. George W. Bush isn’t Russia.
To briefly recap, the leader of Russia (in fact if not actual title) is Putin. Not Bush.
Don’t be so obtuse. GWB is a third rate intellect. He has been outmaneuvered at every turn. The Russians, Iranians, Chinese and North Koreans have tied him in knots. Remember my analogy to chess. The United States is much weaker because of his ineptitude and the Georgia episode is just the latest chapter.
And exactly what do you propose we should have done to better handle the relationship between Russia and Georgia?
Ethnic cleansing isn’t carried out by young armed men - it is neighbour against neighbour, civilians against civilians, ethnicity against enthnicity - and in the Cacusus - clan against clan etc. That’s where militias come from.
These are peoples that hate other peoples for who they are, not soldiers in a war in a far off place. I really don’t think you appreciate how different that part of the world is - it’s more like Afghanistan than Hometown USA.
The problem is our politicians and our media try and see everything through the prism of our own society and history. We tell ourselves fairy tales about good guys and bad guys. We pretend that politics there is like politics here when it is more like the ‘biggest tribe wins and takes all’ African politics.
We like to think just because a leader went to Harvard he’s somehow different yet there he was a few months ago enthusiastically crushing demonstrations, closing newspapers etc. And now here he is breaking repeated ceasefires to shell and rocket civilian areas, his troops and his people ethnic cleansing with enthusiasm.
But when he starts losing and whining we act like he’s some sort of hero rather than just another brutal thug bent on acts of savagery. Russia was perfectly within its rights to respond to the attack on its peace-keepers and defend SO. And it was perfectly within the same rights established by the behaviour of NATO in Serbia and the USA in Iraq to go after the Georgian military wherever it found it.
I don’t like that and I don’t approve of it but that’s the way wars are. If you don’t like it - don’t start one in the first place.
If I could wave a magic wand the Russian forces would all withdraw into the enclaves, which would then hold referenda to decide on their future. If they want to join Russia that’s up to them. They sure as hell don’t want to join with their proven enemies.
Georgia has gotten off lightly and should sit in a corner whimpering and licking its wounds, not keep trying to embroil us in their conflicts.
All I care about is energy security for Europe. I simply don’t care if the Georgians are humiliated, if the Russians destroy every military installation they have. Let that be a lesson to them next time they feel like another bout of ethnic cleansing.
Let them also realise the West is not there to back them up when they next feel like poking the bear with a sharp stick either.
tagos, do you realize that in every thread on this topic, I’ve been arguing that Georgia has in fact been to some degree at fault for this?
That being said, the idea that Georgia is getting off lightly is ridiculous. This has long since passed beyond the boundaries of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Putin has said that Russia will continue until its “logical end.” If you can say what that means, you’re a better man that I am (well, you are anyway, because I’m a woman). They’ve continued the fighting without abatement long after they said that they’d in fact ordered a ceasefire; now they’re not making any pretense about it anymore.
For all of me, they can have S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. But they’re also talking about at minimum regime change, and possibly absorbtion of Georgia. If you think that’s getting off lightly, I can only hope that the accountant of your great aunt is pursued enthusiastically by amorous badgers.
I do not think that the US or NATO should go plunging in with a military repsonse. That ship sailed before this even began; even if we were inclined and able, there was never anything except airstrikes or nukes we could have done without advanced notice - and airstrikes wouldn’t have saved Georgia, while nukes would have been just a tad over the top.
But that doesn’t mean we should pat Russia on the back and say “Well done!” You want your oil/gas supply? I don’t think the way to do that is to tell Russia that it has free rein to do whatever it wants in eastern Europe/western Asia/northern ME whenever and whatever it pleases. People who have chains they can jerk like to jerk them. There must be a way for the collective non-Russian states (NATO and other) to effective express their displeasure to Russia in a way that they know that we are not solely blaming them (i.e. we hold Georgia responsible as well), but that we do not take this lightly and will not tolerate this behavior in future. I don’t know what method this is; I don’t have the resources that heads of state have. But I have trouble imagining that the weathiest nations in the world can’t come up with something.
Did they really think they could best the russian Army? All kidding aside, there is a name for people who jump off roofs-crazy! And the Georgians were ill-advised to all the Russian’s bluff. Where did they get the idea that the US would back them up? that is just insane!
It’s a mystery, wrapped in a riddle. 
At a guess, some over-optimism both on the part of them and some individuals on this end. Not promises, but implications. That is a guess, a WAG. No evidence.
Not that THAT’S ever happened before! (Khomeini in '79 and Hussein in '91)