Open marriage, vunerability or fucking stupidity?

“She’s not strong enough to leave him” – what the hell does that mean?

She is an adult. She makes her own choices, and she knows (just as every adult does) that every time she chooses “A” over “B,” she’s giving up the chance to have “B.” “A” in this case is the guy she’s with (cue “Can’t Help Lovin’ That Man O’Mine”), and “B” is marriage and kids and what most of us consider a “normal” relationship. She can’t have them both, and she knows it, and every day that she chooses “A,” the chances of having “B” (or, at least, the “kids” part) become a little more remote.

Those are the facts, Jack.

I think “she’s not strong enough to leave him” is absolute bullshit. She made a choice and she is living with the consequences of her choice, just as all of us must with every choice we make. It would be one thing if she was comfortable being the mistress and nothing more – and, as I said above, that’s exactly what she is – but she apparently is not. I realize as an intellectual matter that there are people perfectly willing to participate as part of a three-person “marriage,” where every partner is equal. I realize as an intellectual matter that there are people perfectly willing to participate as the “other woman/other man” in an “open marriage,” even though doing so means they will always be treated exactly as they are frankly considered – as a less important that the “primary,” the person the lover is married to. (I say “intellectually realize” because neither of these scenarios make must sense to me emotionally; I wouldn’t put up with either for a New York minute.) But this girl does NOT fit either of those categories: She’s not part of a three-way relationship among equals, and she’s not happy playing second fiddle to the wife.

But still she stays. Because she’s too frightened to contemplate starting over on her own, probably. I can understand that, but I can also tell her it’s never going to get any easier to walk away than it is right now. But if she continues to choose to stay, then it seems to me reasonable to acknowledge that’s exactly what she’s doing – choosing to stay.

She should have walked away when she found out what a lying sack of shit this guy was. How did she reconcile that with him being someone she could “fall in love with,” anyway? Didn’t the discovery of his total dishonesty and disrespect change her mind on whether he was worth loving? But she “couldn’t help loving him,” right? And she’s “not strong enough to leave.” Bullshit, I say; bullshit.

She’s making her choices and she’s suffering with them, and I guess I feel sorry for her to that extent, but she is lying in the bed she made herself – and apparently refuses to climb out of.

Put me firmly in the column of those not seeing the romance here – or much reason to pity her.

Well, color me curious here: any kids involved in these successful open marriages? I can definitely see some practical advantages for child rearing with more adults involved (i.e. babysitting, etc.) but I’ve never heard of an open marriage that involved kids.

I do, however, question the wisdom of one-night stands when you’re married (actually, make that no matter what your situation is) but, whatever, people are going to keep doing stupid shit like that no matter what I say I guess. Carry on. :wink:

There are a number of them at the poly group I attend.

Do the partners share in child rearing or is that strictly for the parents? Just curious.

Wabbit

it will depend on the parties involved, I’m sure. Personally I can’t see how you could have a polyamorous marriage longterm without all partners doing parenting at least to some extent.

I do know someone in a marriage where all partners are parents, regardless of genetic contribution. Works for them.

Yea, it seems to make sense to me assuming, of course, no one minds. You’d have 2 extra people to take up any babysitting needs (in and of itself a huge bonus) and maybe even helping with some of the bills. Wow, I’m sold–where do I sign up? :wink:

Jodi:

I know, if somebody pulled that shit on me, I would have their testicles bronzed and hung over my wood burning fireplace. I don’t tolerate deceit or lies and obviously you don’t either. Afuckingmen, sista.

Unfortunately, the shock and pain of that has flew over ol’ girls melon a long time ago (3 years later) and she chose to stay with somebody that probably isn’t the best choice for her. Now, dum-dum-dum-DUMB! Dilemma!

She has too many reasons/excuses to stay and too many reasons/excuses to leave. What she needs to do is make a godamn choice and stop being so effing indecisive. This is what I have told her. The rest is entirely up to her the way she wants to live her life. I am only her friend, not her guidance counselor/therapist. (I would be filthy rich if I had a dime for every…)

Yes, I am being supportive, but I’m starting to think that a good ass-whoopin’ is what she’ll be getting from me for Christmas this year. Yeah, love hurts, especially if I am dishing it out. Beware, I bark and I bite.

p.s. Thank you everybody for your opinions, facts, experiences, bitches and moans. I have appreciated this thread immensely. Once again, thank you darling members of “The Dope”.

As a bit of a side note…as should be obvious from OpalCat’s posts, “polyamorous” does NOT = “swinger.” They are two very different lifestyles. Just wanted to clarify that.

I have a 7 year old son. When we stilll lived in Arizona, my boyfriend helped watch him. Since moving to Virginia, I haven’t had any real relationships. There was one that was sort of pathetic for a while but it didn’t last long. With my practically non-existant libido these days, and my ever-increasing weight problem, I haven’t been much for the market of late.

As for your second point, I totally agree. Casual sex in general creeps me out. Not for me!

Would it bother you if your husband had a current outside relationship(s) while you were not, for whatever reason?

Just curious.

Five children, seven years of marrige, and an open bdsm lifestyle.

People can do it and yes it does take some work.
We’ve had some touchy times but for the most part it is great.

I know the question that will soon be brought up is the emotional effect on the children.
Well, for the most part they really don’t know. The only thing they know is that they have three or four adults who love and watch out for them and that they can go to with problems and issues they might have.
They also know it sucks cause they can never really get away with anything.:smiley:
Disiplining comes down to hubby and I as well as any major problems. But our friends are there if the child needs an ear.
Right now we are not in a situation in which friends could live with us, but at one time we were talking about buying a house with one of our friends and he had lived with us before hubby and I discovered being open was an option.
Everybody knows straight up what the situation is.

Oh, and I started using Mistress in my name because I consider myself the dominant female. Things have since changed. I am the dominant female in the sense that I come first to my husband, but yet I have found I like being the submissive in other areas.:wink:

I’ll be at work for the next three days, so if I don’t get back to this thread until Monday it’s because I’m chained to the plant until then.

Just one more vote that open relationships can work. I’ve seen it work, much like OpalCat describes (and in this case, two kids).

This whole issue sounds more like your friends bitching about her relationship, period. The fact that it is with a married man in an open relationship just adds the twist that others want to jump on.

Is it clear that she is having problems with this relationship? If so, what? Not being the primary? Does she feel she can’t build a family with this man? Why, exactly?

It sounds like she needs a (non-judgemental) friend - I hope you can be one.

I only note that in the OP, this guy was an “amazing man”, but after this one month of deceipt issue crept up, he is a cretin. I certainly can’t condone the deceipt, but I found that change quite interesting.

I never called him a “cretin” or anything else derogatory for that matter. Yes, I do think he is an amazing man. He has never done anything directly or indirectly to make me loathe him, so why would I have an issue with his character? That is not what this thread has been about.

The only thing I said was I didn’t understand the idea/concept of an open marriage. It was also my opinion that an open marriage is complete and utter bullshit. Why? I am not wired that way, that’s why.

Great if it works for you, people you know or other posters on this message board (bravo for you all), but I am too much of a jealousy monster to not be #1 in my relationship. Hence, why my monogamist marriage works in my favor (bravo for me). I just know that I couldn’t or wouldn’t want anything more/less in my marriage, just as a person in an open marriage would expect the same in their relationship. I am not here to set the guidelines for every person who walks the Earth, but I can question individual guidlines if I want to.

I also stated that I would not tolerate lies or deceit in my own relationship. I am not the one that is in love with this man. I am not the one that has an emotional attachment to him either. I am simply stating the facts and trying with all my might not to pass judgment, just opinions (which I am entitled to have). I think I have been pretty fair throughout this thread and I know that I haven’t put anybody down here for the choices that they’ve made. I said it once, I’ll say it again, “To each their own.”

For the record, she cannot build a family with her open-marriage lover because he and his wife do not want children. Did you ever consider HIS view or HIS wife’s view on child rearing? Or was this just an excuse to nit-pick on what my friend wants in her own life? I thought you were being pretty unfair and you were the one being a tad judgemental.

Also, my friend does not want to be a single mother, and that is what she feels she would be if she got pregnant with his child. He is not up, nor is his wife up to the idea of having a baby. All this was discussed in their relationship once upon a time.

Yes. Actually I’d really like it if he did, since I feel really bad what with my totally missing libido (my psychiatrist and I are in the process of trying to find a new medication combination that might bring it back)… if he had someone else at least he’d be getting some :wink:

There are a lot of things that I’m not wired for, that I don’t understand the appeal of, or that I would never want to do. That doesn’t mean I think they are “complete and utter bullshit” though. Ask anyone who knows my family if our marriage is “bullshit” and see what they say.

(also it’s not like having an open marriage means that everyone ALWAYS has a boyfriend/girlfriend or that everyone is just a hedonist looking for pleasure.)

Since I do not know you, or know anybody else that knows you, I will not be asking anybody, anytime soon what the stability of your marriage is like. I’ll just take your word instead. :wink:

I said, I think the IDEA of an open-marriage is bullshit because I know that I am not wired to handle the circumstances, the emotion and the sharing that comes along with it (maybe I should have elaborated).

I don’t understand it, so you’ll have to forgive me if I fall into the “closed-minded” monogamist view point here (which I know you did not imply either). I just know what works for ME and only ME- not what works for YOU, or HIM or HER…

The thought of my husband falling in love with another woman without ending our relationship first, sickens me (once again this is only MY view reguarding MY relationship, not yours). I really don’t think I would be a good candidate for the lifestyle that you chose because of that (I think we all can agree on that one thing here).

I also don’t want to be penalized for stating that is MY preference either. That is what I meant by “complete and utter bullshit”, because I refuse to FEEL like I am anything less then #1 in my husband’s eyes (that doesn’t mean that you are not #1 in your marriage just because your situation differs from mine.) Your marriage is based on a different set of guidelines/trust and love then mine is and they both work in our favor, et cetrera.

You’re obviously more emotionally evolved then me (I am not being sarcastic; I really do mean that as a compliment.) I believe it takes a unique set of people to build and accept a lifestyle that involves more than 2 people. Kudos that you and your husband make it work. If you have children, I am happy they have more people in their life who love them too.

It just isn’t my bag, that’s all, and I don’t want to be berated by anybody here just because my opinion and lifestyle is based on a “traditional” marriage.

p.s. There was that a better way of rephrasing it or should I go get out my shovel so I can dig a deeper hole?

I think AZ Cowboy’s point - and I think he strikes at the heart of the matter - is that this “amazing guy” got your friend into a situation she wouldn’t have accepted had she known at the start by, if not outright lying to her, at least not being honest with her.

By the time she understood the terms of the relationship, she was hooked. Its even possible that he preyed on her low self esteem to get what he was after and keep her there. (The married bum I was involved with sure preyed on my vulnerabilities). If she is so worthless (in her opinion) what is this “amazing guy” doing with her?

That seems like a bigger deal than the guys relationship with his wife.

And that your friends relationship problem can be summed up by “she wants a bigger committment than he is willing or able to give.” Not any different than the thousands of relationships I’ve helped girlfriends get over with ice cream. The wife is a red herring.

I hate to bring this up, but Dear Abby yesterday (yes, I know fellow dopers) had a letter in it from a women who was in a relationship with a married man. The man’s wife died, and a couple months later the man dumped her. The wife may not be the only reason she doesn’t settle down and raise kids with this guy. I watched an acquaintence in a five year relationship with a married man (not an open relationship - he was cheating). Eventually, the marriage broke up - and my acquaintence started figuring a wedding was in the works for her - nope. Without the safety net of wife, he wasn’t interested in a relationship with her any longer and moved on.

I’m not sure if I understand this comment. Why is everyone saying that someone involved in an open marriage is more “emotionally evolved” than people involved in traditional marriages?
IMHO, it sounds like they’re less emotionally evolved than people involved in traditional marriages.
They want to have a spouse, but want to date other people? Sounds like a petulant child who can’t make up their mind about who they want in their life.
They can’t commit to one person? They want to be married, but want that option of seeing what else is out there? That’s being “more emotionally evolved”? I don’t think so.
To me, it just sounds like an excuse to cheat.
“Gee, honey, I love you, but I want to date other people.”
Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

What are marriage vows about? “Forsaking all others”? Being faithful?
I think being in a traditional marriage, and having the fortitude to say, “No, I’m married, and I am faithful to my spouse, so I’m not going to cheat” is a sign of a more emotionally evolved person.
If you truly love someone, you wouldn’t want to date other people.
:rolleyes:

Who said that we CAN’T commit to one person? We’re very happy with just the two of us. However, if we meet someone and the friendship starts to become something more, we don’t deny the natural progression of that relationship. You don’t want to be like that? Fine. No one is asking you to.

And don’t say that we are less emotionally involved than other people in traditional marriages. If you knew us at all you’d be laughing at yourself.

Marriage vows? Funny, I didn’t see you at my wedding. Where were you hiding? My marriage vows didn’t have that wording. They were more like promising to love and understand each other, and to work through troubled times, and to build a strong bond. All of which we’ve held to quite firmly. Our marriage vows have never been broken.

Faithful? I think maybe you need to look it up in the dictionary.
Here is one definition: steadfast in affection or allegiance : LOYAL
Hmmm… that describes us pretty well.

And for that last bit, how DARE you say that my husband and I don’t love each other. How DARE you. I would give up my life in a heartbeat for him. I love him more feircely than I ever dreamed it was possible to love another human being. After 11 years of marriage, we still tend to prefer just being with each other to going out or any other activity. As long as we’re together we’re happy. We could sit in a room with each other for weeks on end without ever being out of each other’s sight for longer than it takes to go to the bathroom and never even have a flinch of getting sick of it (I know this, we’ve done it). So don’t you ever say that we don’t love each other just because of the types of friendships we may make with other people at times.

In some cases, it might be gullibility or blindness. But from what you’ve said, it sounds like everyone here is happy with the arrangement. Different ways of arranging relationships work well for different people. Not everyone will have the same motivations or needs, either in open or closed relationships.

If this works for them, more power to them. If it doesn’t work for you, then don’t get into an open relationship.