Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread

[Wolverine]

@Hal_Briston

If possessing the phylactery would give Redcloak a hold over Xykon, then why hadn’t he exploited it before Blackwing took off with it? Was it just not the right time yet? Or will he not be telling Xykon it was found at all?

It could be that Redcloak wants to delay leaving until the goblin nation is more firmly entrenched, but with everyone searching for the phylactery, I’d assume not much is getting done anyways.

I think Redcloak is going to pull a switcheroo. He’s going to claim a normal holy symbol is the phylactery while the real one remains in his possession to do with as he wants. Because it can’t be scryed upon, he doesn’t have to worry about Xykon recognizing the difference. I hope Redcloack remembers to ward a fake holy symbol as well.

[Quartz]

@Lightray

No. The problems that they’ve found is that their sales are not what they want them to be. Their fix is, apparently, “have everyone buy all the books over again.”

The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Kobal2]

@Wolverine

It could be that Redcloak wants to delay leaving until the goblin nation is more firmly entrenched, but with everyone searching for the phylactery, I’d assume not much is getting done anyways.

I think Redcloak is going to pull a switcheroo. He’s going to claim a normal holy symbol is the phylactery while the real one remains in his possession to do with as he wants. Because it can’t be scryed upon, he doesn’t have to worry about Xykon recognizing the difference. I hope Redcloack remembers to ward a fake holy symbol as well.

I don’t rightly know the rules on liches, but I would guess they can sense whether their own soul is in the room or not. Besides, I doubt Redcloak can cast all of the crap Xykon put onto his Precious - for one thing he’s no wizard/sorcerer so he must lack some on his spell list, for another he’s not into the epic levels just yet.
Finally, if I were Xykon the first thing I’d do upon getting my Precious back would be to switch phylacteries around. Now that Team Good knows what it looks like, there’s nothing clever at all about hiding his soul inside Redcloak’s holy symbol any more.

[Lightray]

I think that Kobal2 has it right. Redcloak can’t have any goblins around because Xykon wouldn’t stand for any goblin knowing about his point of vulnerability.

[Gagundathar]

Yeah, I agree. Lichs are quite powerful.
I believe they are the top level of undead, right?

[Larry_Borgia]

Who was the polymorphed spy? Was it someone special or just some random goblin?

[Peter_Morris]

@Kobal2

I don’t rightly know the rules on liches, but I would guess they can sense whether their own soul is in the room or not.

The way I understand it, the phylactery only holds the soul if the lich’s body gets destroyed. Any time other than that, it’s just a trinket.

[Miller]

@Peter_Morris

The way I understand it, the phylactery only holds the soul if the lich’s body gets destroyed. Any time other than that, it’s just a trinket.

No, that’s not the case. In both 3.5 and Pathfinder (I didn’t look any further back than that) the lich is explicitly described as storing their soul (or “life force,” per 3.5) in the phylactery at the time of their transformation into a lich. Although destroying the phylactery before destroying the lich does not appear to adversely affect the lich, as one would expect. IIRC, Xykon raises just that point to Redcloak in Start of Darkness, to prevent Redcloak from thinking he can use the phylactery to blackmail Xykon.

@Kobal2

I don’t rightly know the rules on liches, but I would guess they can sense whether their own soul is in the room or not. Besides, I doubt Redcloak can cast all of the crap Xykon put onto his Precious - for one thing he’s no wizard/sorcerer so he must lack some on his spell list, for another he’s not into the epic levels just yet.

Per the rules, liches have no such ability. You could house-rule it in, but I think that would be a mistake, given the dramatic possibilities inherent in tricking a lich into thinking something else is its phylactery. It seems that Burlew is not using any such rule, otherwise Xykon wouldn’t need to spend months having his goblins comb the sewers to find it - he could just stroll around down there until he sensed his phylactery, and then have a goblin dig it out of the muck for him.

Finally, if I were Xykon the first thing I’d do upon getting my Precious back would be to switch phylacteries around. Now that Team Good knows what it looks like, there’s nothing clever at all about hiding his soul inside Redcloak’s holy symbol any more.

There’s no provision in the rules for creating new phylacteries. The phylactery is a crucial part of the lich transformation process. It’s not a stretch to assume that it’s irreplaceable.

@Gagundathar

Yeah, I agree. Lichs are quite powerful.
I believe they are the top level of undead, right?

Not really. There’s a ton of different undead in D&D. A lot of them are comparable in power to a lich. Some of them are significantly stronger. The Epic Level Handbook has a bunch of these, such as the atropal, which is the giant undead fetus of a god.

[Alessan]

@Miller

Not really. There’s a ton of different undead in D&D. A lot of them are comparable in power to a lich. Some of them are significantly stronger. The Epic Level Handbook has a bunch of these, such as the atropal, which is the giant undead fetus of a god.

OTOH, a high-level primary spellcaster can the most powerful being in the game, bar none. If that spellcaster also happens to be a lich, so much the better.

[Miller]

@Alessan

OTOH, a high-level primary spellcaster can the most powerful being in the game, bar none. If that spellcaster also happens to be a lich, so much the better.

True, but the same could be said for a vampire or mummy.

[Hypno-Toad]

So, is Niu a paladin or just a regular fighter?

[Gray_Ghost]

A few questions about the last few strips:

What kind of critter tore the Resistance member with the phylactery in half? I didn’t think it was a Horned Devil like the ones in the cavern—it looked bigger and redder—and I didn’t see it get paid. If it was a Pit Fiend, does that mean that RC is able to cast Gate as well as Summon Monster IX and, obviously, Implosion? (Great spell effect art, BTW.)

How long would it have taken Redcloak to get the message from the polymorphed spy, get to the caverns, buff up, summon everyone, and smoke the Resistance? Summon Monster is only 1 rd/level, though I guess he could have Extended it to 2 rd/level. That’s still only 34 rounds. You’d think the raiding party would have heard the fight going on if they were only 34 rounds away at running speed. The various Planar Ally spells last awhile, I guess, depending on what RC is calling and how much $$$ he wants to spend. (IPads are probably worth a lot, although see this post for a 2008 gp to USD conversion.) And whether he has the ten minutes each casting requires.

How did RC (or any other cleric not wearing armor, really, in 3.5) get his AC high enough to not mind melee with the one-eyed rogue that he ended up killing with, I think, Slay Living? Or to deflect the arrow shot by his second Implosion victim, given that Prot from Arrows is a Wizard spell? Haven’t read SoD (though I’ve read enough of the Spoilers that I might as well have read it.), but does the Crimson Mantle give an AC bonus? I didn’t see an Ironskin or Stoneskin effect.

Per Miller, while killing the phylactery wouldn’t do anything harmful to Xykon, wouldn’t he be at least aware of his soul being snuffed out if RC dropped it in the OOTS equivalent of the Cracks of Doom? Or is it a case of once the soul has left X’s body, he has no idea what it’s doing or has had done to it, until his consciousness is recalled to the phylactery upon his physical death?

Oh, and if Tsukiko is researching the Ritual with the unspoken goal of replacing RC as the divine caster, why not bring Tsukiko along to kill the Resistance? (With the idea of having her inconveniently fail to survive the raid?)

Finally, how did RC not notice Niu leaving, regardless of her Rogue class levels/abilities?

Great set of strips and I’m loving the update rate.

[Little_Nemo]

@Hypno-Toad

So, is Niu a paladin or just a regular fighter?

Thanh was the only paladin left in the city. Niu is a fighter/rogue. 535

[Gagundathar]

@Miller

No, that’s not the case. In both 3.5 and Pathfinder (I didn’t look any further back than that) the lich is explicitly described as storing their soul (or “life force,” per 3.5) in the phylactery at the time of their transformation into a lich. Although destroying the phylactery before destroying the lich does not appear to adversely affect the lich, as one would expect. IIRC, Xykon raises just that point to Redcloak in Start of Darkness, to prevent Redcloak from thinking he can use the phylactery to blackmail Xykon.

Per the rules, liches have no such ability. You could house-rule it in, but I think that would be a mistake, given the dramatic possibilities inherent in tricking a lich into thinking something else is its phylactery. It seems that Burlew is not using any such rule, otherwise Xykon wouldn’t need to spend months having his goblins comb the sewers to find it - he could just stroll around down there until he sensed his phylactery, and then have a goblin dig it out of the muck for him.

There’s no provision in the rules for creating new phylacteries. The phylactery is a crucial part of the lich transformation process. It’s not a stretch to assume that it’s irreplaceable.

Not really. There’s a ton of different undead in D&D. A lot of them are comparable in power to a lich. Some of them are significantly stronger. The Epic Level Handbook has a bunch of these, such as the atropal, which is the giant undead fetus of a god.

Wow. Things have changed a LOT since I last played.

[Miller]

Not sure what the demon in the tunnel is - I think it’s one of the ones in the main hall. It only looks redder because the lighting in the tunnel is different.

Redcloak probably only needed to summon one of the devils - devils can always summon their own backup.

I assume that Redcloak is wearing armor, but even if he’s not, at his level, it’s not hard to get enough magic items to give you a pretty beefy AC. Bracers of armor +8, ring of protection +5, a decent AC, and you’re already over an AC of 25, even before you count any spell effects.

Protection from arrows is a wizard/sorcerer spell, but it’s only second level. Have we seen any arcane casters among the goblins/hobgoblins? He might have gotten it from Xykon, but that seems unlikely. It might also be provided by a magic item.

There’s nothing in the books about a lich being able to sense anything about his phylactery, although it wouldn’t be unreasonable to rule that a lich knows if its destroyed. Something like that would be up to the GM involved.

[Chronos]

Regardless of the rules, Xykon claims that his soul isn’t in the phylactery while he’s still ambulatory, and Redcloak doesn’t call his bluff on it. So that would seem to be Rich’s interpretation, which is after all the one that matters here.

[Chronos]

Oh, and:

Redcloak probably only needed to summon one of the devils - devils can always summon their own backup.

A demon or devil which is summoned by any means can’t use its own summoning abilities. But the fact that he’s paying them at the end of the job probably implies that he was using Planar Ally spells (which can bring very powerful creatures, but require you to negotiate a mutually-agreeable contract), which also gets around the duration problem.

[Miller]

@Chronos

Oh, and:
A demon or devil which is summoned by any means can’t use its own summoning abilities. But the fact that he’s paying them at the end of the job probably implies that he was using Planar Ally spells (which can bring very powerful creatures, but require you to negotiate a mutually-agreeable contract), which also gets around the duration problem.

Right - I was using “summon” in a generic sense. My point was, he didn’t need a planar ally spell for each devil that was in the fight, just one of the big ones.

[Chronos]

Chaining Planar Ally spells is sort of counterproductive, though, since asking the powerful devil to bring in his own reinforcements is going to cost you as much or more than just calling the reinforcements yourself, directly. I guess you might save spell slots that way, but it’s not like a 17th-level cleric has a shortage of those.

[Gagundathar]

Criminy, guys! What rules is Rich playing with?
Is this the 4th Edition?
Because I am SO old school I still use reverse AC.

I so have to find new folks to play with.
<deep sigh> That ain’t gonna happen.