Kanicbird, what of this? lekatt has been givin a gift — all knowledge of the afterlife and spiritual world, and he knows for a fact that there is no such thing as demons, satan or any other sort of evil entity. Yet, you claim to do warfare against such things all the time. How can this be?
You are both obviously right, since you have both experienced “God” in a very real way, and have faith that cannot be shaken. So, how is this paradox unraveled?
But if this is the case, how can a seer “look into the future and see some event coming in your life?”
That is, how do they know it’s your life, and not the life of some person on the other side of the world? How do they know it’s your future, and not your past? How do they even know you exist?
As I said, telling me that there is no lotto in the spirit world is a stupid and obvious way to try and avoid having to face the contradiction in your statements. It is not a tactic of the intellectually honest.
Question 1: Can the spirits ever detect and comment on the physical world?
Question 2: Do the spirits sense the past, present and future all at the same time?
Question 3: If the answer to Question 1 is false, how can they detect that you’re using the Ouija board?
Question 4: If the answer to Question 2 is true, can the spirits report to you what the condition of living people’s spirits will be in when they die, and everything they will do at any future point?
Question 5: If the answer to Question 2 is true, how can the spirits tell that you’re trying to communicate with them now, and not answer questions you ask in the past or future, which is all the same to them?
Question 6: If the answer to both Question 1 and Question 2 are true, can the spirits detect the future state of lotteries in the physical world, and comment on them now?
The spirit world is in Utah?
You already knew that no one was talking about a lottery in the spirit world and not this one, which was why you answered that spirits can’t see the future, and not that lotteries don’t exist. You’re clearly avoiding the contradictory statements you made by pretending you could have even possibly thought anyone was talking about a lottery in the spirit world. Sad.
IMHO The spiritual world is far different then our physical world, we try to relate things as best as we can, but it’s not going to be a exact fit. You may experience something like a tiger, another person may describe it as a wolf. It is the closes match we know of that we use.
Demons do try to deceive us mainly by telling partial truths, that is why the Holy Spirit is needed to discern the truth. By the Holy Spirit and the Word of God the lies can be uncovered.
Not at all. First each person will interpret it differently because there are really no direct corresponding objects so we have to use the closest matches. Second mature believers who have the Holy Spirit can disagree on issues, in time God will make His truth clear and lead both into agreement.
It’s a good thing he didn’t say the spirit world had no television, or there’d be no reason to go there at all.
Why I wish I could answer that, OK. Yes God does allow evil to exist.
Because who he might take with him. If Lucifer wins, just imagine a world with no love.
Yes I know there is a lot of hate already
The level of question required an answer on same level
So, do theists really believe that they don’t have emotions? Because I know that love is an emotion that I can feel, or not feel, depending on my own thoughts or perspective about the person I’m having the emotion for. No god or devil loves for me or drains love from me, because if they did, they’d do it independent of my opinions. I’d love everyone or I’d love noone, because the demon in control would be the same in all cases.
As that’s not the case, I know that I do my loving myself, and don’t need some silly diety to do it for me.
Please don’t generalise about us theists based on postings in this thread.
Fine - anybody who doesn’t hold the belief needn’t defend it.
(I had to say that?)
You can’t ever seem to be wrong with an argument like this, even if you are in fact wrong.
If it looks like you’re right, you’re right
If it looks like you’re wrong, Satan switched things around, so you’re right.
If you were in fact wrong, how would you become aware of it?
If the spirit world is timeless, but the physical world has linear time…
then somewhere, in the spirit world, is my deceased spirit. Right? Assuming I die someday, in the earthly future, my spirit will reside in the spirit world, which has all times at the one moment.
So… if I contact the spirit world, can I contact my own spirit?
The implications in the field of selfcest would be revolutionary…
Why is this so difficult for you. If a seer can look into the future and see an event coming for you. This has nothing to do this the spirit world. The seer is human and can see the event, but the event may change due to the changes you make in your life after the event was seen. That is what I said.
Now if someone from the spirit world would tell you an event is coming, the same thing applies. Larger events have a better chance of happening, and then there is the chance if the person from the spirit world is your guide that he may be guiding you into the event. You are not going to use logic to understand all the happenings in the two dimensions.
When you are in the spirit world the events make sense. From the physical they don’t make sense. I would go on but most on this board are only interested in themselves and what they already believe. So it is not fruitful.
I am finished.
lekatt I know you said you’re finished but before you go…
On the topic of NDEs…
wikipedia says the following symptoms are commonly associated with the phenomenon, and these seem to mesh with what’s been described here…
How is any of this explained by supernatural forces? When you are in that situation, your brain is starved of oxygen. When your brain is starved of oxygen, neurons either shut down or start firing chaotically.
I submit to you, the temporal lobe, which contains the hippocampus.
1. A very unpleasant sound/noise is the first sensory impression to be noticed;
Hearing is also the first thing neurologists will tell you is associated with the temporal lobe, both low level auditory processing (hearing sounds) and high level auditory processing (speech). So you hear a noise? Colour me unsurprised.
2. A sense of being dead
What does this even mean? Things I would associate with this (out of body experience, lack of senses, calmness) are covered elsewhere, like…
3. Pleasant emotions; calmness and serenity
Oxygen deprivation - pilots experience it under g-forces.
4. An out-of-body experience; a sensation of floating above one’s own body and seeing the surrounding area
Lack of sensory input, caused by oxygen deprivation. Lying down doesn’t feel like floating, because you can feel the bed beneath you. Take away that sense, it feel like you’re floating. Add to that the fact that your sense of balance is askew, for the same reason, and it feels like you’re floating.
5. Floating up a blue tunnel with a strong, bright light or garden at the end
Oxygen deprivation - pilots experience it under g-forces. This is well documented - the tunnel effect is caused by randomly firing neurons, the bright light is the same, the garden is a halluciantion.
And guess which part of the brain is (partly) responsible for high level visual processing?
6. Meeting deceased relatives or spiritual figures;
Hallucination caused by, guess what, oxygen deprivation. If you feel your body slipping away, your senses shutting down, some part of you is going to start thinking about your own mortality. Little wonder the halluciantion subject will match your train of thought.
Point to add: not everyone meets anyone, and sometimes they meet people who are still alive. Want to know why?
HALLUCINATION
As I mentioned above, the temporal lobe is used for high level visual processing, as in recognition of faces and scenery. Starting to see a pattern here?
7. Encountering a being of light, or a light (often interpreted as being the deity or deities they personally believe in)
See point five. Some sense are still coming through in all this oxygen deprivation, so the image of someone standing over you, coupled with the oxygen deprivation, causes a being of light to appear. Either that or it is a full blown hallucination.
8. Being given a life review (the “life-flashing-before-your-eyes” phenomenon)
No mystery - the hippocampus is closely bound tot he temporal lobe, and together they are responsible for all your memory regulation. Misfiring neurons bring old memeories to the surface, whether you wanted them to or not.
9. Reaching a border or boundary
I don’t know what this sensation would feel like. If it is like you were floating but you suddenly stop, it would either be your sense of balance returning, or your sense of balance disappearing entirely.
10. A feeling of being returned to the body, often accompanied by a reluctance.
Wow. Isn’t that the same as saying feeling is returning, and your sense of balance is returning? Big mystery.
11. Feeling of warmth even though naked.
Hippocampus is responsible for temperature regulation. Some other part of the brain is responsible for temperature sensing.
Not addressed is the feeling of universal love and acceptance, but did you know that oxygen deprivation makes you high? A similar high to that felt by religious people, that one which makes you feel like you can sense the very heartbeat of the universe around you? That the universe is intrinsically good, and you are loved, and life is good? That feeling doesn’t come from God, at least not directly - it is built into the human brain.
And would you look at that? All symptoms of NDE can be explained through basic neurology - in fact, most of it is isolated to the same part of the brain! There is an elegance to that, don’t you think? But you go ahead and tell yourselves that your misfiring neurons were a touch from heaven, and that science could never, ever explain it away. Frankly I don’t expect much more from you.
The thing is, all this spiritual stuff is in your head. You don’t physically SEE demons, nor do you audibly HEAR the voice of the Holy Spirit. It all comes from the internal monologue that is constantly in your head. How do you know, when you feel or hear something, you’re just not picking and choosing what you want to be the voice of God (or dismiss it as the devil)? Do you even give a modicum of credit to the possibility that it’s all just your own thoughts, and nothing else?
Also, can you address post #261, please?
Are you asking do spirits have emtions? Yes and I believe the emotion they exibit is not Love.
Yes God does love you even if you do not believe in him, or you hate him. It does not depend on your emotion.
It doesn’t matter what you believe, because you have never in fact met a spirit to glean such information. If you feel you have, I argue that it was all in your imagination.
You believe in God, that’s fine… as an agnostic, I can accept that. But that doesn’t automatically give you all the information and authority to speak on behalf of this “spirit world.” Not you, nor kanicbird, or even lekatt.
Nothing any of you have put forth so far have been a convincing argument as to the existence of this realm. What’s more, none of you can seem to fully agree with each other. So, as an agnostic, who should I believe if I wanted to be converted to your own, contrived brand of faith? lekatt and his claim of visiting the afterlife in a dream, thereby gaining all knowledge, yet conveniently forgetting the important stuff? kanicbird and his interpretation of demons and the Holy Spirit constantly pulling us this way and that so that we may do their bidding, like pulling all the curtains and locking ourselves in the house for over 3 days? Or yours? Or someone else’s?
It’s arrogant piousness at work. You should all be ashamed.