My wife got a 6 point speeding ticket the other day in NY. We live in NJ. For purposes of NJ driving enforcement all out of state moving violations count as 2 points (39:5D-4). The question I have is about insurance rating. The insurance companies sometimes have different rules and processes for dealing with points than the state does (e.g. NJ drops 3 points for each year with no violations, but the insurance companies generally do not). So the question is whether the insurance companies would treat it as a 6 point violation as it is in NY, or as a 2 point violation as it gets processed in NJ.
It would logically make sense for them to give it 6 points, because that would reflect how dangerous of a driver you are. But I’m thinking that for practical reasons they would probably treat it as a 2 point violation. Unless I’m misunderstanding this, points are something that attach themselves to your driver’s license, and can therefore only be assessed by the state which issued your license. Therefore, NY’s 6 points are meaningless to someone from another state, since NY has no connection to that person’s license, and the only thing that counts is the amount of points assessed by the state which issued the license. In theory the insurance company should be able to access points info from any state, but I’m thinking the state which issued the violation won’t actually have any record of any official points, since it’s not something they can assess in this case, as above.
But what do I know? Perhaps more knowledgeable people can chime in.
The state point systems don’t have any bearing on what your insurance company will do about a ticket. The insurance companies have their own sort of point systems (which you might be able to look at or they might keep to themselves) but they run them themselves and all they care about is what the actual infraction is, not what the state penalties are.
Thanks guys, but there’s no point in repeatedly noting that insurance companies use a different system. The whole premise of my question is based on the fact that insurance companies use a different system, and I also noted that in the OP (second half of the first paragraph).
The question here is that even if the insurance companies might want to use a different system here, there may be no practical way for them to do this, because they start off with the points given by the state (to which they apply their own rules) and I’ve suggested in the OP that a state cannot apply points to a license that they did not issue.
Here is the gist of what both I and the previous poster have said:
Insurance companies don’t care about the points put on your license by the state. (If they did, then I could rack up as many tickets as I wanted, and not have my rates go up, since Oregon doesn’t use a point system.)
Insurance companies look at how many violations you have, and the nature of those violations. Those violations carry over from state to state.
Call about a new insurance quote. They ask if you’ve had any moving violations or accidents. They don’t ask if you’ve had moving violations or accidents in the state that your license was issued.
I don’t think what you’re saying is correct. I would guess that the insurance companies use a different system in states that don’t use points, but I believe they do use the points issued by the states in states that issue them. (How long they keep them in their records and how they treat them is up to their own discretion.)
Here are some sample cites which are consistent with that:
You’re getting hung up on the “points” thing. The points on your license are only relevant to the state’s habitual traffic offender program. It doesn’t have anything to do with how the insurance company learns about the ticket. They get that information from various public records databases and that will just tell them what the actual charge is (i.e. 70 in a 55 or whatever), not what the fine is or how many points. They may or may not assess “points” themselves in deciding how much to raise your rates, but they probably don’t even bother finding out how many points the state gives you.
Here’s a source for you. I’ve worked in the insurance industry for 35 years, much of it in personal lines rating. Insurance companies don’t necessarily look at the points on your record, even if your state uses points. I say “necessarily” because I have not worked for every insurance company but my guess is that the vast majority do it this way. The companies I’ve worked for look at name of the violation (failure to yield right-of-way, for example) and decide how they’re going to count it against you. It’s usually a point system of their own making. Just like others in this thread have said.
So perhaps you can answer a more detailed question. The reason this ticket was 6 points is because it was 21 MPH above the speed limit (71 in a 50 zone). In NY this is a 6 point ticket; in NJ this would be a 4 point ticket. Based on what you (and others) are saying, I gather that the insurance companies don’t care what either NY or NJ assess it at, and they have their own scale for assessing a 21-over-the-limit violation, which may be a huge deal or not (& which may be different than a 19-over-the-limit violation (as NY) or the same (as in NJ)).
Is there any way to know how big of a deal this would be for the insurance company? Question is whether it’s worth fighting it. My wife has no other tickets in quite a while, so my inclination would be just to pay it, but if this one ticket is going to be a huge deal on our rates for years to come it might be worthwhile. Company is GEICO.
This may not apply to your situation, but with GEICO in IL I got a 20-point violation for “disregarding a traffic control light” (failing to stop in time at a red light, which caused a minor fender-bender), which is the same number of points as 15-25 mph over the limit. My rate with GEICO didn’t go up at all; this was our first and only (knocks wood) ticket/claim with them. Several years later we have the good driver discount back, too.
You’re welcome. You’re correct that different companies may look at the same violation differently. I have no way of knowing how GEICO assigns points. And it may not even be points any more. Something else that might interest you is that companies are moving towards using algorithms where they take in a number of different factors and shake them up in a black box and spit out a rate. GEICO may or may not be doing this. So, the impact of your violation **may **be weighted by things like how many total violations you have, how many your household has, how many not-at-fault accidents you’ve had, how many at-fault accidents you’ve had, how many accidents you’ve had where someone (could be a totally different insurance company) paid out more than some aribitrary dollar amount, etc.
Auto rating used to be very simple. Miles to work, age, sex, marital status, and a surcharge based on a point value of your losses and violations. An accident free or good student discount may have been applied. Back in the old days, a company might have waived the first minor violation. Now it’s just crazy and a rate can take into account a great many variables. Actuary science is a great career. I am not an actuary but I’ve worked with them quite a bit.
[I’m a bit wary of calling them up and telling them things of this sort, because I once went on their website to see how much it would cost to add a kid and after I filled out the questions they said sorry, you’re going to add him whether you like it or not - as it happens this kid was away at school 95% of the time and I had been thinking of not having him drive the car at all. But it was too late. So if I think they might not know or provide the answer, I would rather not try to find out by calling them.]
I actually am an actuary, as it happens. But in health care, not auto insurance, so it doesn’t help me much. (We get certified by entirely different entities, the SOA versus the CAS.)
I’ve never worked with health actuaries, except by e-mail for the company I’m working for now, which has a health component. Just P&C. I wouldn’t call GEICO. They likely have a set schedule where they order an MVR (motor vehicle record) on you and they’ll find out eventually. No sense tipping them off to order one early. One company I worked for ordered MVR’s every three years unless you had an accident. That would trigger an order out of the set schedule. Another company *never *ordered an MVR after your policy was issued unless you had an accident. If you get a renewal where your rate has gone up an unacceptable amount, shop around.
I have a couple of teenage drivers at home (or school) and for some reason Geico is a lot cheaper than other companies for this group. Like 60% - 70%. So I’m probably going to stay with them regardless. The only thing I’m wondering about is whether it’s worth trying to fight the NY ticket. (Another part of the calculation is that this doesn’t have such a high chance of success in any event.)
(YMMV, I’m not your agent, you’re not in California, etc.)
Depending on the state, you may have the option to pay the ticket and take a class to have it not appear on your record. Not an answer to the question asked, but I see so many people who don’t take the classes to wipe off the ticket for the first offense. In California, with the company I work with, taking the classes to wipe a minor violation from your record is always worth it for a first offense. Without taking classes, the violation will remain on your Motor Vehicle Record for six years and this company will surcharge for the violation for each of those six years at a declining rate. (They may charge $200 the first year, $165 the second, etc.) With this company in CA, all minor violations are treated the same no matter what state they were located in. Major violations like DUI are automatic declines.
There may be a difference between how the insurance departments of different states rate the violations or how the classes are handled. And there may be a difference in the rates various companies file with your state’s insurance department.
If you have an agent, ask him how your insurance company would charge for a violation and for how long. We give estimates all the time to our customers of how a ticket will affect them. (“Well, the ticket will cost you approximately $XXX over the next six years but if you have an at-fault accident on top of it, it could cost $XXXX.”)
If New York is anything like Florida the infraction will remain on the wife’s MVR even if the point assessment is cleared by attending traffic school. It’s an admission of guilt.
Are you sure about that? In all the states I’ve had the misfortune to deal with, it’s basically a deferred prosecution and if you do the traffic school (and/or jump through whatever other hoops) the case doesn’t go forward and so there’s nothing to report to the public records places. Since you usually still have to pay the whole fine (and then some), the whole point of those deals is that it keeps the tickets off your record. If the insurance companies find out about them and ups your rate anyways, who would ever take one? The only situation I could see is if you’ve got enough tickets that you’re risking suspension, but at least IME they only offer you deals like that if you have a relatively clean record.
Regarding the last part of your post - I’ve only received one moving violation during my driving life in NY - changing lanes in the midtown tunnel. I do have friends who have received TONS of them (a few who lost their licenses eventually). For my one ticket, and for many of my friend’s tickets, we plead not guilty, went to traffic court and then 1 of 2 things happened.
Either the cop didn’t show up which is an automatic dismissal in NY (if you plead not guilty and the cop doesn’t show up, tell the judge you would like to request that the ticket be dismissed and he’ll throw it out and you pay something like a $30 or $40 court “fee”).
The other likely outcome, especially if you don’t have any/many violations) is that the ticket gets dropped down to a non-moving violation which means no points. Most of the time the fee will be higher but you avoid the negative consequences of points.
I don’t think that NY uses the deferred prosecution model, and I’m pretty sure that the infraction itself stays on your record in most cases ( which doesn’t mean individual courts may not dismiss the case after a defensive driving class is completed.) But it does remove the points from your record, and my understanding is that the insurance rate increases are based on points.
This is the part I’m not undertanding- when people say " wiped from your record" do they really mean wiped from your record or do they just mean it’s not taken into account when setting rates? Because if it’s truly wiped from the record, then your “first offense” could in fact be your tenth offense as the first nine could have been erased after taking classes.