Palastinian bombers have NO excuse. Prove me wrong!

Great Debates
181

Henry, I think you have an excellent point that refugee workers, international police forces, etc. should have specific understanding of the cultures, languages, and history of the places where they are working if they are to be successful, and if foreign intervention in conflicts is to be successful in general. Otherwise, we end up with disasters like bombing village wedding parties.

Of course, this is my bias as someone with a master’s degree in Russian & East European Studies. I think that much U.S. aid to the former Soviet Union was spent badly or went into pockets where it didn’t belong, because the U.S. government has rarely understood the vlaue of having people who understand the region where the resources are to be expended make the decisions about how budgets are appropriated; they instead tend to pick who they see as the best technical experts in a particular field, without recognizing that the practicalities of implementation may vary widely, and that you must have buy-in from local government and the local population.

Just curious: if you’re willing to share, you seem to have had an interesting life, living in Stockholm, in Siberia, and also having some as-yet unspecified Finnish connection. How did this happen? And how has it affected your outlook on the Palestinian situation?

(P.S. I spent the summer of 1995 studying in Novosibirsk; it was beautiful!)

182

No, you wouldn’t. Since moving to a very small town three years ago, I no longer have access to the history books; my own source of evidence would be on the Internet. If I use Palestinian or other Arab sites as references, you will claim that they are biased–yet, no such evidence, obviously, will be posted on Israeli sites, or the sites of Americans (Israel’s biggest supporter)

They were there before the suicide bombings in the form of ‘settlements’ and, given their record, they will not pull out unless extreme pressure is put upon them by the rest of the world.

183

Henry: Quote all you want. For every quote you produce, I can produce both 10 quotes which are exactly analogous from the Palestinian side. I can also produce 10 quotes, from many of the same people, which have said how much they supported and longed for meaningful peace with the Arabs. Quotes, especially taken in isolation as you have given them, mean very little to me.

What, to me, is important is action. Successive Israeli governments have initiated peace negotiations with the Palestinians. Israelis have come off of their Zionist ideals considerably in the past 10 years. The Palestinians have entered and exited every negotiation with exactly the same viewpoint: peace only if you accept 4 million refugees and pay us dearly, peace only with sacrifices which will totally undermine the current state of Israel.

If you are against the state of Israel in its current incarnation, don’t be afraid to say it. Olentzero says it all the time IIRC, and we debate using that premise. I personally believe in a state of Israel, and I believe that the 5 million Israelis living there have every right to defend themselves. I do not support settlements, and I am not going to try justifying them. I think they should be withdrawn immediately, or at least turned over to Palestinian autonomy.

But to state that the settlements are the sole reason behind Palestinian violence overlooks a bunch of social factors. Our differing viewpoints stem from, as I understand it, you seek to explain Palestinian violence solely as the result of the occupation. I of course recognize it as a reason, but I will not say that Israelis bear full responsibility for the violence of the Palestinians because IMHO there are other more important social reasons behind it. These reasons explain why the Palestinian struggle is violent and not peaceful, like other movements of the past century.

As I see it, these social factors make it somewhat dangerous to play the unilateral withdrawal game. While they need to withdraw, they also need real assurances of security from the Palestinian side. They need these before they leave. It is pragmatic – the Palestinian security forces have consistently been unable and unwilling to do this. If there is no IDF in Palestine (which I hope would be the case), they need effective security by friendly cooperative Palestinian security or by international monitoring. I can really see no organization equipped to send thousands of security forces to maintain effective preventive security, so it will have to be cooperative Palestinian security. And for this to arrive, there needs to be a sea change in the situation on the ground in Palestine. The Palestinian people need to want a negotiated settlement, they need to accept Israel, they need to have leadership which is able to say this while maintaining control of the wildly popular extremist groups.

Your take on the 1967 war is also interesting. I won’ say that I am an authority, but there is ample evidence for an Egyptian and Syrian military buildup in the months before the war, followed by both militaristic speech from Nasser and closure of the Straits of Tiran. I can’t see how one could honestly make a point that Israel was in no jeopardy when three or four armies were perched on the border of a country in places less than 20 km wide.

I agree that more needs to be done for the Palestinian people, who are largely innocent in this whole affair. But unfortunately changes need to occur before that happens. The World Bank and Arab Leagues have poured money into the PA. Most of it has evaporated while Arafat’s wife and kids live comfortably in Paris. Extremist groups have operated unchecked, which precipitated the current intifada, which precipitated a closing of borders, which precipitated runaway unemployement in the territories. Add to this violent anti-American sentiment among much of the population of the Arab world. To convince American taxpayers to give money to people dancing in the streets after September 11th or cheering Saddam during the Gulf War is a hairy proposition at best. That’s just the way the world works.

P.S. I spent last June in Tomsk.

184

Sorry, Mandos, I am late from what I promised, but these connections does not seem to work when USA is busy. (It is 3.47 AM here just now. (My main work is to look that the sun comes up every morning and send it, not the morning, but the sun to my friends in Texas.)
The lines here…, well there is something that is connected from one stolb to another, usually called a wire, but here I am not so sure.
And the stolbs, thousands of them, have to be i harmony at the same time so that I can reach USA-site at a certainn moment…

Anyhow,
You are naturally right in that I have not checked all the sources. I am a little bit handicapped in this, because I am living here in Russia. Every book can’t be found.
But I hope You found The Christian Science Monitor not bias to the Palestinian direction?
It is a opinion, the story of Helena Cobban, but I would say that no paper that is leaning to “the other side”, if I may say so, would take even an opinion into their paper, if the writer would not been well known. So even here I can not prove that it is
in this way or that way.

1) Some of my other information comes from GushShalom:
http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/index.html
Read the “About us”. It begins:
“Gush Shalom (Translated from Hebrew, the name means “The Peace Bloc”) is the hard core of the Israeli peace movement. Often described as “resolute”, “militant”, “radical” or “consistent”, it is known for its unwavering stand in times of crisis, such as
the al-Aksa intifada.”
But there is much more than this, please read, because I can not put it all here, because of copyright reasons…

2) I also read The Palestine Monitor
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/index.html
It is more “a Palestine paper”, but it gets its news very fast. And afterwards I can get the same news, from the same angel or slightly different one, e.g. BBC, Independent etc.
Anyhow, I would say that they look at the world through Palestinian eyes.
And that is exactly what I need, because I have seen the world through western eyes all my life. I try to learn to understand, not blindly, but objectively as everyone of us should.

And please, someone out there, just do not jump and shout: “See! This guy read whatever!” Because this does not mean that I believe whatever.

3) I even read Counterpunch
http://counterpunch.org/grinberg0708.html, but I have not read it enough to say something about it.
(If You read a paper for a longer time, You usually see if it has “tendencies” or “grave tendencies”).

4) Do not take this as a joke, but one of my main resource is Straightdope. Here are many very accurate writers. I do not begin to tell my favorites, because they maybe do not like it. On the other side You can easily find guys that just writes whatever pops in their head.
(It was not intended by me to leave away the information where I got the texts, when there was the origin of every text. Except of course this, that I openly told that is from a Palestinian source.)

5) Human Rights Watch and UN-sources I look at as quite reliably.

Then to the main point!

6) Palestine Media Watch
http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/main.html
has published the quotes I used: http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/snakebite/

Please check out their Debates. Both parties, the Israelian and the Palestine, are there discussing, not shouting (so much):
http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/features/pmwatchdebate.asp

Compare that with the “debates” in e.g. New York Times. (I read them also, but I do not like the rasistical words there).

Especially read: http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/features/onpmwatch.html
It gives some picture of their objectivity. Under the headline:
(Of copyright reasons I have shortened the texts and did not put whole sentences in print)
What they said about PMWatch
“… impressed with the care and sophistication of the work of
PMWatch, and its …”
Prof. Noam Chomsky MIT, Linguistics

“… several of Palestine’s brightest young minds created
PMWATCH. … everyone seeking a just and durable peace."
Prof. Norman G. Finkelstein, Princeton University

"… is something I’ve been longing for years. It provides a
counter-weight to an aggressive pressure group …
…is doing an excellent job and deserves unstinting support. "
Prof. Edward S. Herman, Emeritus, Finance, Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania

“… is one of the best media monitoring sites I’ve encountered,
period…” “ Many pro-Israel media monitoring sites could learn
a lot from … “
Ahron Shapiro, The Jerusalem Post

So, it was from here, dear Mandos from PMWATCH, I took my quotes and the history about the war.

I was most curious about the story about “the accident” with U.S.S. Liberty on June 8, 1967, so this I checked out more carefully:

Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney of Georgia made the following statement on June 6, 2002 about U.S.S. Liberty:
(Henry’s comment: I think that public speeches are not copyrighted when they are made about public affairs in the congress(?))

"Mr. Speaker, I speak to commemorate and recognize the tragic
attack that took place against the U.S.S. Liberty on June 8, 1967. Although thirty-five years have come and gone since this historic event, the survivors of the U.S.S. Liberty are still struggling with the fact that their story has never been heard.

"While there has never been an official investigation into this event, we have learned from survivor accounts that for over 75 minutes the Israeli Defense Forces attacked the U.S.S. Liberty, killing 34 American soldiers and wounding an additional 172.
With over 85% of the crew either dead or wounded, they somehow managed to keep the ship afloat after being hit by over 1000 rounds of rocket, cannon, machine gun, napalm hits, and even a direct hit from a torpedo.

“This unprovoked attack took place in international waters, and by
a trusted ally. The only explanation given to the survivors and their families as to why this attack took place was that it was an accident and that their ship was not identified as being American, regardless of the fact that our flag was proudly flown throughout
the attack.
Unfortunately, that explanation is not good enough for those whose lives have been impacted by this attack, and it should not be good enough for the American people.
Let’s not wait another thirty-five years before we provide the survivors of the U.S.S. Liberty an official investigation into why this attack took place and allow them to tell their story. We owe them more than a debt of gratitude for their sacrifice; we owe
them the truth.”

Henry’s comment: I do not want to go to US politics, but I put here her E-mail address:
http://www.cynthia2002.com/
because she is a brave woman.
(If You do not understand why (she is brave), ask me, just ask, and You get a book about it.)

Then please read about:
The U.S.S. Liberty at http://ussliberty.org/

The story, or more exactly the big hush, hush, is even more incredible than A. Schwartzenegger and C. Eastwood have put on screen in any Hollywood film!
Please read! There is a clear copyright clause, so I can not put it here.

7 from time to time I also check:
http://www.lawsociety.org/arms/main.htlm
It is the The Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment is a non-governmental organization dedicated to preserving human rights through legal advocacy. LAW is affiliate to the International Commission of Jurists (ICJ), the International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH), and the World Organization Against Torture (OMCT).

I hope this addresses helps people to take a look at the other side of the coin.
And of course You should look the other side as well, but that You have very easy to find: The main media in any language.

I just want to stress that what I call “the main media”, (almost?) never goes asking a woman washing her families cloths or feeding the family sheep: “How’s life?”

Thank You for reading.

Have a nice day.

185

Edwino wrote:

"Henry: Quote all you want. For every quote you produce, I can produce both 10 quotes which are exactly analogous from the Palestinian side. I can also produce 10 quotes, from many of the same people, which have said how much they supported and longed for meaningful peace with the Arabs.
I fully believe You.
And in the sense that we should forgive and forget I also agree with You.
But still, I think that this kind of things are the fuel in the endless spiral of hate.
The hate has to be stopped.
And I do not hate Israel. One thing I have learned in my life is that whatever conflict there is, things can be sorted out and when You then go further in time, You see (I mean I see as many other people) that in the root people are people.
My first visit to Soviet Union was very official, but I was amazed when I met people in a park, just ordinary people, how their small thoughts and worries and my small thought and worries were alike.

I am 52 years old. When I see here a kid, maybe 5-6 years old running at the yard, it does not matter what his name is, Igor or Aleksei. What I see is Henry running some 45 years ago. Exactly the same delights he has, I had.
Is there a difference if a Russian small boy kneeling near the ground, looking at the ants, or a Finnish or an Israelian boy? I do not see any difference.
There is no bad children, and often even we adults, that are stupidly getting angry, can begun to love “our enemy” and see that there was never any enemy, we just did not talk with each other.
If I write something, wrong, I learn from that. If someone is writing something that I do not believe or accept, I learn.
As long as this tread has been here and I have been writing here, I think I have seen new aspects in many questions. And I have learned a lot. I also feel that I and some other writers (no names) has come nearer each other.

I really do not know how to put it, but I feel so awful sometimes when I look at the news. It can be a war, a disastrous fire, or what ever, and I see Henry
running, crying or what ever. I hope You understand.
I am not a believer, but I think we should love our neighbour and help him.
There is so much that should be done and so little I can do.

Edwino wrote:
“As I see it, these social factors make it somewhat dangerous to play the unilateral withdrawal game. While they need to withdraw, they also need real assurances of security from the Palestinian side. They need these before they leave. It is pragmatic – the Palestinian security forces have consistently been
unable and unwilling to do this. If there is no IDF in Palestine (which I hope would be the case), they need effective security by friendly cooperative Palestinian security or by international monitoring.”

I agree.

Edwino wrote:
“I can really see no organization equipped to send thousands of security forces to maintain effective preventive security, so it will have to be cooperative Palestinian security.”

Well, I believe the world has resources to do almost anything. It is just a question what we (the world) want. It seem to me that the world is just wanting the “yes-no-yes-no” discussions to continue (forever).
I believe that we should put much more effort and resources in different conflicts.

And Edwino, next time You, or anyone comes to Russia, please let me know. We can maybe meet?

186

There is a mistake in my earlier post.
TThe reader can misunderstand who said what. Plese forgive, it was not my intention.

Edwino wrote:

“Henry: Quote all you want. For every quote you produce, I can produce both 10 quotes which are exactly analogous from the Palestinian side. I can also produce 10 quotes, from many of the same people, which have said how much they supported and longed for meaningful peace with the Arabs.”

I fully believe You.

187

FWIW after this train wreck of a thread, Amnesty International agrees that there is no excuse for Palestinian suicide bombers targeting civilians.

188

Train wreck, eh? I think it’s one of the better ones, actually. Four pages long and it hasn’t gotten close to becoming Pit fodder.

I don’t think there’s a man or woman among us who is actually saying “The only way for Palestinians to effectively make their point is to target civilians in suicide bombings”. There is a vast difference between being aware of the situation in which militant Palestinian organizations resort to suicide bombings and saying they are right to do so.

Suicide bombings cannot be explained away by castigating the Palestinians as a whole, decrying them as hairy Koran-toting terrorists by nature. Nor can Israel’s actions since 1948 be eliminated from the equation by saying “That was then, this is now.” Such a statement ignores the simple fact that what happened then directly produced what’s happening now.

To cite a parallel example, the limitations set down in the definition of republican liberty in the American Revolution (white, property-owning males over the age of 21) set the stage for the Civil War eighty-five years later. And the forced end to Reconstruction in the 1870s further set the stage for the civil rights struggles of the 1930s and the 1960s.

Therefore, to adequately explain and understand why Palestinian organizations have resorted to violent terrorist tactics now, you have to acknowledge the fact that Zionist (and then Israeli) intransigence over the past 50+ years has slowly, steadily, and surely pushed the Palestinians’ backs against the wall to the point where they feel they have no choice but to fight back with suicide bombings.

Amnesty International is correct to condemn suicide bombings as a tactic, but that in no way undercuts the argument that the cause of, as well as the solution to, the problem does not lie solely in the Palestinian camp.

189

I found a little trinket on the front page of the Palestinian Media Watch website: http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/cast/auschwitz.asp
This article suggests that Israel is behaving like the Nazis because identity numbers were “written in ink” on the arms of Palestinians. It is not said whether such identity numbers were tatooed or not, a vital piece of information in a comparison to Nazis. Is anyone who writes a number on someone’s arm with a ballpoint pen a Nazi?
In response to the case of the USS Liberty that you mentioned, Henry, what would the motivation be for Israel? Wouldn’t it be terribly stupid to deliberately attack a United States ship? Israel, I imagine, does not want to start a war or create hostilities with the United States, their ally.

190

A couple of sites for you, Mandos.

First is the USS Liberty Memorial site: http://ussliberty.org/

Second is a 1993 article on the incident from the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs: http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0693/9306019.htm

Also, just for laughs, here are two pictures:

The El Quseir, the ships the Israelis claimed they thought they were attacking.

The USS Liberty, taken shortly after the attack.

I know there are military Dopers all over this board, and I’d like to hear from them how it is possible for highly trained military pilots to confuse the two.

As for motivation, I believe I read something on that in a book that’s just been released in English - Forbidden Truth by two French investigative journalists. I don’t have it immediately to hand so I can’t quote specifics, but IIRC the US was heading to the Middle to investigate some incident or other involving Israel, which Israel didn’t want investigated.

191

Honesty, what a great policy! You do not understand the the depths of sorrow and anger a person can feel. If you as a shrink they’ll tell you in many people anger is a mask for depression and sadness. You watch your TV news and imagine the Palestinians have not suffered as the Isrealis have, if that is the case your are mislead. Unfortunaly Palestinians are dirt poor, they do not have the option of waging conventional warfare as the Isrealis do. I wonder what the suiside rate amoungst the Palestinians is? Quite high I would guess, citizens of nowhere, owners of next to nothing, living in shanty towns with their fellow displaced, thinking of lost family, no light at the end of the tunnel in view. No, I’d say you lack the emotional experiences that help one understand their anger, the hate that consumes conscience does not the majority manifest without course. Perlonged suffering fuels the extremists ranks and such suffering should be alliveated.

192

Jenin is only one recent example of the Isreali state murdering men, women and children. Consider the shooting, captured on film, of Mohammad Al Dura, a 12 year old boy huddling on the ground when killed. Frankly if you can’t find an eye witness report of Isreali violence from a Palestinian on the net, then you don’t know what your doing. So here’s far sites I’ve just found in ten minutes.

http://www.iacenter.org/jenin.htm

http://electronicintifada.net/diaries/

http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/Middle_East/
WARNING: SICK PICS OF DISMEMBERED CHILDREN

Mohammad Al Dura

http://www.usnewslink.com/israel.htm

I consider any of the above to be as impartial (in that they may not be) and as creditable as any major commecial news source.