OurLordPeace, I don’t know if you are twelve and read a couple of seriously messed up books, but you are deeply out of your element here. Most of the adults around here recognize the silliness of the kumba ya, no more countries John Lennon thing.
Israel is a country, period. The Palentinians have land to form a country as well. Part of their issue is that their government boils down to an incompletent group in one spot and Hezbollah as the other group.
I honestly wish both sides would stop shooting anything for awhile.
I did not say Hamas nor Hezbollah. I referred to the PFLP, which is secular, leftist, and supports a one-state solution. Groups like that (some, like Fatah, supported two states) were the norm for a long time, until Hamas emerged. Some say that Israel supported Hamas in order to weaken the secular groups, like the US’s actions in Afghanistan. Did you not know this until today?
The one-state which emerges would probably be called Palestine, though it might get hyphenated. Zimbabwe-Rhodesia existed, briefly. The one-state solution is becoming increasingly likely by default, ironically due to Israeli intransigence regarding the lands seized in 1967, and recent expansionism making a distinct Palestinian state impossible. In case you’ve never read about the one-state solution, the ruling class would be faced with two options: 1. votes for all, which will end the “Jewish state” concept, or 2. rule by apartheid.
Eventually, over time, I would love to see an anarchist (anti-capitalist and anti-state) movement emerge in this new, democratic, multi-ethnic, secular (but probably segregated) Palestine. In fact, such economic tendencies have a long history in the area, joined recently by the political side… amongst Israeli Jews!
No, I’m 31, have read a lot of very important books, and finished my Master’s degree from a very well-regarded International Affair’s program by writing a paper about the US/Israel relationship. No, I didn’t write about anarchism, as that was not the topic.
I think it’s pretty silly that ordinary people from one country should have to fight and die against similar people from another country, just because the leaders say so. I think it’s pretty silly to assume that nation-states are inevitable, since they’ve only been around since the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. I think it’s pretty silly to take any power relationships on faith, unless you’re okay with things like racism, sexism, classism, ageism, ableism, LGBTQ-phobia, and all the rest. Israel’s domestic stances on these issues are often admirable, but also beside the point. See the next paragraph.
Yes, Israel is a country, founded by ethnic cleansers who pioneered many terrorist techniques by murdering the same people who had saved Jews in the Holocaust. If the Palestinians do have enough land for a viable state, you’re still asking them to surrender the lands seized in 1967. In any case, that two-state solution is inferior to a one-state solution. Yes, it’s a serious problem that their leadership is composed of the corrupt (Fatah) and the reactionary Islamists (Hamas, not Hezbollah). No, I do not agree with the stances of either group, and it just goes to show you why anarchists distrust leaders.
WHO makes one fight for ANY country? The US does not force people to fight; it is an all volunteer force. Israel does not force combat upon anyone. This is just silly beyond what I am willing to entertain.
The US had conscription at many times in its history, such as during the imperial slugfest known as the First World War. Anarchists and other leftists opposed the draft and the war, and were harshly repressed by the Wilson Administration. Israel has universal conscription. In recent years, Israeli military personnel have gone to jail rather than attack the Palestinian territories. In fact, throughout history, the ruling classes have usually forced (or sometimes hoodwinked) the masses into fighting.
If you have to have a draft, you shouldn’t fight the war.
Tell us more about how the “Zionist[s]” control/influence/other-weasel-word the “American news media” and how that’s connected to Hollywood. Do tell.
Judging by the sheer amount of ignorance you display, I do not believe this.
For example:
Even a basic understanding of history would have let you know that Jordan and Egypt seized the “Palestinian” territories and prevented the formation of a Palestinian state, at no point were the territories beyond the Green Line “Palestinian”, and Jordan only symbolically transferred control to the Palestinians once it had lost the West Bank for quite some time, and its internal Palestinian population was getting to a point where another Black September was looking plausible. Did they not cover this stuff in your highly prestigious International Affairs program?
Utterly and completely fictional. You have invented this or are parroting someone else who invented this. Jabotinsky and his coterie were the exception not the rule.
Utterly and completely fictional. Your comment is guano non-sane.
One wonders how 20% of Israel’s population is Arab if they never hesitated in killing any and they were dedicated to ethnic cleansing. Just shows that facts have a well known Zionist bias.
Utterly and completely fictional, and severely twisted. The Jews of the period were looking to save other Jews from the Nazis. That ethnic nationalism was on the rise across almost all of Europe and some of the Middle East is uncontroversial. That the Jews of the time agreed with the Nazi ideology/policy of rendering land Judenrein is, simply, bonkers.
A Conspiracy Theory and a single spy.
Yeah… you’ve got a great start so far.
Even folks with internet credentials from prestigious graduate programs, it seems.
Fiction, fiction, and then a distortion. Good show.
If you knew the history of the region, you’d know that Egypt started the '67 war by instituting a blockade against Israel, a clear casus belli. But you didn’t know that.
If you knew the history of the region, you’d know that it most certainly was not a “war of choice”, as Egypt was preparing to launch an assault, Syria was launching attacks from the Golan, and Jordan gave control over its army to Egypt. But you didn’t know that.
You’ve also distorted Begin’s quote. His actual statement was that Egypt’s troop disposition, in and of itself, was not ironclad proof that Egypt was going to launch a ground attack, and that Israel acted preemptively. But, of course, Egypt had already started the war by blockading Israel’s ships from the Straits of Tiran. But as we’ve established, you didn’t know that.
Yet more fiction.
Back in reality, the proto-Israelis bought land from its legal owners and settled on it. They were met with the rise of the Grand Mufti, who went on to ally with the Nazis for an actual plan of genocide. Not, you know, the one you’ve imagined. Oh, and the partition was drawn along ethnic majority lines.
You do know that the Balfour Declaration wasn’t until 1917, right?
In the late 1800’s, immigrants settled into wastelands and were driven by secular ideology, and just wanted to survive on the land. Of course, after Balfour there were the Arab Riots. You seem to have conveniently forgotten about 'em.
Yet another fiction.
In point of fact, global Jewry was quite supportive of the Zionist project (there aren’t Zionists anymore, by the way, there’s already a nation of Israel. So your odd, but ever so clever verbiage, should probably be updated to this millennium.)
Are you kidding?
So being forced into Dhimmi status is… not much friction?
You a fan of Jim Crow, too? Or is this a special case?
Richon L’Tzion, founded by 14 families, is in your bizarre understanding, a proximate cause of the murderous violence unleashed upon the Jews of the region. Kay.
The nation’s name is “Israel”, but I guess calling it “Judaistan” satisfies… something… for you. And of course, you have the standard absurdist boilerplate about how Jews, who wanted to get the fuck away from Germany, should’ve been told to live there. Of course, as Zionism was a movement of self determination, and the Zionists were living in the Mandate territory (or moving to it) and wanted to continue living there (and moving to there), your suggestion is… odd.
And as I stated, you or someone else invented that.
And if your position is based on fiction… well… surely something in your grad program covered that eventuality, yes?
“rogue hooligans?”
Do you have any actual knowledge about Israel and Palestine, at all?
Hamas rules Gaza with an iron fist, they’re a totalitarian, theocratic regime. That you think people are off firing off rockets without Hamas knowledge (to say nothing of retaliation) is such shocking willful ignorance that it beggars credulity.
Unless, of course, you were also ignorant of that bit.
Would you care for some citations so you can learn, ya know, facts?
Just for a change of pace?
Bad news for the slaves freed by Union conscripts in the American Civil War, and millions saved from tyranny and murder by Allied conscripts in the Second World War.
More to the point: you realize that the Palestinians weren’t the original inhabitants of the disputed lands, right? They have no original “tribal” claim either.
Brilliant factual rebuttal.
But what do I know, I don’t have a prestigious degree in International Affair.
It’d be International Affairs, but there was only one and it was kinda boring and… anyways…
Of course, W&M’s screed has been debunked on factual, methodological and logical grounds. But if you’d like to concede that I was correct on everything I wrote and all you can do is handwave the facts away with a shit cite, well, okay.
Canada and other places ended slavery without a war. The slave trade had been stopped, and thus every escaped slave was a blow to the Southern economy. Expanded abolitionist activism could probably have changed the trickle into a flood. In any case, abolition was not the reason the North went to war.
True, but they among others have a better case than European Zionist Jews.
Mmm hmmm.
Care to show us your case-o-meter? It is just based on how long ago a group conquered a territory by military force, or some other metric? Meanwhile, are you going to address even one factual inaccuracy I caught you in? No?
And how about you get back to your claims that the “Zionist[s]” somehow control/influence/manipulate the US media and what that connection is to Hollywood. Inquiring minds want to know.
Oh, and about WWII… The Allies consisted of regimes attacked by the Axis, plus a couple who had treaty obligations. Forces not only drafted by, but politically loyal to, Stalin and Mao (among other nefarious characters) did most of the fighting and dying. This does not indicate equivalency, but it does put it in perspective.
Also, did you miss the part where the Zionists began a terror campaign against British peacekeepers, just after those same Brits helped to defeat Hitler? Mandate Palestine wasn’t like India or Nigeria (speaking of oppression and mass death, do you know how Churchill felt about the Bengal famine?) The area grew prosperous, and the British didn’t exploit it. Did you miss the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte, who saved thousands of Jews from the Holocaust?
I did not say that Zionists control the media. You did! I don’t think that they do. Instead, the corporate media reflect the biases of those who don’t know much about the history of this issue, and instead take sides with people who look, dress, and talk more like Americans. This also reflects Hollywood’s usual jingoism. For decades, they have portrayed Arabs as stock terrorist villains, as if it were some kind of congential trait. Journalist Jack Shaheen studied this some years ago, in a notable book called Reel Bad Arabs.
No, but you are again horribly ignorant on a subject you’re expounding upon.
The Brits were capturing and imprisoning Jews who tried to flee to the Mandate, sometimes imprisoning them in the same concentration camps that Jews’d been liberated from, even after the state of Israel was founded. Glub Pasha and other British officers went on to lead the Arab Legion in the war of extermination waged against Israel in '48, as well. And that’s just a smattering.
Of course, on the subject of the British, we can also put paid to another one of your absurd fantasies.
Oh, and groups like the Haganah were formed in response to pogroms:
And so on.
Your ignorance is showing.
Again.
The Stern Gang, a group whose membership maxed out at a few hundred, assassinated the count. And just days after the assassination, the Israelis declared the Stern Gang to be terrorists and criminalized their organization, later reaching an amnesty deal with the SG in order to achieve stability after the war.
Really, it’s not a problem. I can help you find actual facts about the conflict that your program in International Affair evidently did not see fit to include. Be my pleasure. Fighting ignorance, n’ all.