Palestinian woman calls off suicide attack after being told to dress sexy to fit in

[Jodi]

I am glad that you don’t concider yourseldf a bigot. However branishing a whole culture is the wrong thing to do. That is what I objected too in the first place, and that is what I find wrong.

The word you’re looking for is “bashing.” And if a whole culture condones mass murder – as the vast majority of this culture appears to do – that I will continue to bash it with impunity.

I have nothing against Palestinians per se. I support the creation of a Palestinian state. But to raise your children to kill others is twisted, sick, and wrong, and I am not a bigot to say so. And if, in fact, your objection is as KIMSTU suspects – that is, that you think I’m talking about every aspect (or any aspect) of a greater Arab culture – I am not and was not.

[Jodi]

KIMSTU, a society is nothing more than a collection of individuals. It is not reasonable to expect to achieve absolute unanimity before you can attribute a particular mindset to the society as a whole.

IMO it is reasonable to attribute to Palestinian society the approval of suicide mass-murders. That obviously doesn’t mean that every Palestinian approves of them, but it is a reasonable statement none the less. “Society is fucked up” != “They [individually] are all fucked up.” So I say again: It is the society that fosters this behavior, and so it is the society that is fucked up to the extent it does so.

[gobear]

However, to say that this view is a fundamental characteristic of all of Palestinian society, much less all of the various Arab societies in the world, is seriously screwy. Worse, it’s self-serving and lazy; it just functions as an excuse to ignore the actual diverse views of people in those societies by saying “oh, they’re all fucked up.” That is bigotry

Sorry, Kimstu, I see your point, but the facts are not on your side. Suicide bombing isn’t an anomaly in Arab society; it is rewarded, both financially and societally. It is considered a praiseworthy act. The parents of suicide bombers are congratulated by their neighbors and receive cash subsidies as a reward. Consider: if a devastating event killed thousands of Palestinians at once, do you think Americans would dance, sing, and celebrate? Think about Arab newspapers that print serious articles claiming that Jews sacrifice children for holidays and drink their blood. Think about the ethics of a society that encourages murder of innocents but disapproves of showing a little leg while doing so.

Some societies can be condemned wholesale. Chinese society during the Cutural Revolution, Cambodian society under the Khmer Rouge, North Korean society under Kim Jong Il are just examples of truly screwed up societies. Because I consider East Germany to have been a fucked up society is not an expression of bigotry against Germans.

[gobear]

I have nothing against Arabs in themselves. I have great respect for their contributions to world culture, mathematics, art, literature. But to refuse to condemn the cultural embrace of mass murder as a political tactic, as the Palestinians are doing, is to abdicate one’s moral responsibility.

[Earthworm_Jim]

*Originally posted by Jodi *
It tells its young people that if they blow themselves to hell, and take a bunch of innocents with them, they’ll get eternal life and 70 willing virgins! It is the definition of fucked up! Look up “fucked up” in the dictionary and you’ll see a picture of this!

It’s true. In a deal like this, you need to get the virgins a couple of weeks prior to the operation.

[The_Hamster_King]

*Originally posted by Kimstu *
**However, to say that this view is a fundamental characteristic of all of Palestinian society, much less all of the various Arab societies in the world, is seriously screwy. Worse, it’s self-serving and lazy; it just functions as an excuse to ignore the actual diverse views of people in those societies by saying “oh, they’re all fucked up.” That is bigotry. **

Where are the prominent Arab voices condemning the suicide bombers? Where are the mullahs who are denouncing this practice as evil and contrary to the teachings of the Koran? Where are the editorials in Arabic newspapers vilifying these actions as a barbaric blight on the reputation of all Arabs?

Instead we have mealy-mouthed talk of “martyrs” instead of “suicide bombers”. We have the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the blood libel printed as fact in Middle Eastern newspapers. We have government payments to the families of bombers who are successful in their murders.

Silence implies assent. Unless I hear other Arabs condemning the acts of the bombers, I’m assuming they support their actions.

And that’s a fucked up society.

[Efrem]

*Originally posted by Pochacco *
**
Where are the prominent Arab voices condemning the suicide bombers? Where are the mullahs who are denouncing this practice as evil and contrary to the teachings of the Koran? Where are the editorials in Arabic newspapers vilifying these actions as a barbaric blight on the reputation of all Arabs?

Instead we have mealy-mouthed talk of “martyrs” instead of “suicide bombers”. We have the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the blood libel printed as fact in Middle Eastern newspapers. We have government payments to the families of bombers who are successful in their murders.

Silence implies assent. Unless I hear other Arabs condemning the acts of the bombers, I’m assuming they support their actions.

And that’s a fucked up society.
**

Maybe you are just not listening?

[Efrem]

*Originally posted by gobear *
**
Sorry, Kimstu, I see your point, but the facts are not on your side. Suicide bombing isn’t an anomaly in Arab society; it is rewarded, both financially and societally. It is considered a praiseworthy act. The parents of suicide bombers are congratulated by their neighbors and receive cash subsidies as a reward. Consider: if a devastating event killed thousands of Palestinians at once, do you think Americans would dance, sing, and celebrate? Think about Arab newspapers that print serious articles claiming that Jews sacrifice children for holidays and drink their blood. Think about the ethics of a society that encourages murder of innocents but disapproves of showing a little leg while doing so.

Some societies can be condemned wholesale. Chinese society during the Cutural Revolution, Cambodian society under the Khmer Rouge, North Korean society under Kim Jong Il are just examples of truly screwed up societies. Because I consider East Germany to have been a fucked up society is not an expression of bigotry against Germans. **

Nothing can be “condemned wholesale” we don’t have the right to do that.

[gobear]

Nothing can be “condemned wholesale” we don’t have the right to do that.

Then, again, I suppose we should not condemn, but rather understand, Mengistu and his “reforms” of Ethiopian society and his repression of Eritrea, where you’re from. Really, it was only his zeal for a better and brighter Ethiopia that caused his excesses.

[Jodi]

Nothing can be “condemned wholesale” we don’t have the right to do that.

Ah, yes, the squishy nonjugment of the truly amoral.

[Revtim]

*Originally posted by efrem *
**
That is an oversimplfyed view of things and which will only lead to more confusion and carnge. If your just blowing off steam, fine (I guess this is the “pit”), but you can’t just cast things off as “fucked up”. That is very dangerous. **

Well, to be honest, I’m not just blowing off steam. When I think long and hard, and try to reconcile my belief that people should be able to follow whatever cultures and mores they want with my belief that people should not be made to suffer, my desire for suffering to end is greater and always wins.

I’m not saying I have a solution, like going in and bombing countries that perform clitorectomies and installing our own laws (clearly that would cause suffering as well), but I’m not going to justify it thinking “well, it’s their culture, I have no right to judge.” I can and will judge these horrific practices and any institution that supports them, whether it be a person, a city, a country, a church, a government, a religion, a culture, or an entire planet.

[Efrem]

*Originally posted by gobear *
**
Then, again, I suppose we should not condemn, but rather understand, Mengistu and his “reforms” of Ethiopian society and his repression of Eritrea, where you’re from. Really, it was only his zeal for a better and brighter Ethiopia that caused his excesses. **

You want to condenm Mhengistu/derg/Ethiopian government then fine, flame on. However, if you want to condemn Ethiopian(or Eritrean) society as a whole(especialy with such an argument as “evil”) I will “open all the firey gates of hell”.

[Maeglin]

Nothing can be “condemned wholesale” we don’t have the right to do that.

We don’t have the right, we have the fundamental duty to judge and to be judged. And when the conduct of others, even entire societies, crosses the line of acceptable conduct, we have every obligation to condemn it wholesale. Naturally, we have every obligation to make sure our condemnations are grounded in undistorted fact.

And who is to be the judge of what is acceptable or not?

I am. I am a man of the west, and I will impose my mores, my rationality, and my judgment on the rest of the world. And I fully expect everyone to do the same, each with different points of view and different backgrounds. Sure, I am very interested in the reasons for phenomena, especially ones as bizarre and unpleasant as suicide bombings. You can explain to me how suicide bombing is internally consistent with Palestinian dogma, how much the Palestinians have been oppressed, how much they hate us. It is all worth knowing, and it is surely essential to finding a permanent solution to the problem of displacement, poverty, and ethnic conflict.

But at the end of the day, Palestinian society supports violent self-destruction but does not permit even rudimentary sexual freedom for women.

This is seriously fucked up. And no amount of sophism, semantics, or explanation of context will change that.

[monstro]

I’m going to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment because I understand what efrem and Kimstu are saying (so please don’t castigate me too much).

What typed of fucked up culture and society produces people willing to slaughter innocent civilians, but not if it requires them to wear makeup and tight slacks…

Well, what type of fucked up culture and society produces people willing to slaughter innocents period?

Turn on the six o’clock news and you’ll find all sorts of US born-and-bred nuts killing innocent people. “There must be something fucked up about American culture”, says the self-righteous Amish man.

Does the US and all the other so-called “civililized” countries ever sanction the slaughter of innocents, all in the name of “freedom”? I think so. An Afgani man laid up in the hospital with “Made in the USA” shrapnel stuck in his butt probably thinks so too.

JAR, it is not merely the suicide bomber that’s fucked up, it’s the society that births him as well. It’s paying their families $20 grand, and painting them as heroes and martyrs, and telling 5- and 10- and 15-year-olds that they can do nothing finer than to end their lives murdering others…

Be! All that you can be! In the Army! The song is drilled into our children from birth. The ads make it look like you’re in summer camp, but intelligent people know what’s it’s all about. Death and destruction. Killing for your country. Risking your life for your country. What middle/high school doesn’t have a ROTC program?

Suicide bombing isn’t an anomaly in Arab society; it is rewarded, both financially and societally. It is considered a praiseworthy act…

We have two holidays to commemorate our military heros. Fighting for your country is considered a very praiseworthy act in the US, one that allows you to receive healthcare, pension, and other benefits for you and your family. If you show particular acts of bravery (e.g., killing lots of people), you even get medals. Folks salute you in the streets. You are considered a hero.

If suicide bombers went after the military rather than civilians, would their actions be just as praiseworthy as the actions of our military heros? I’m not thinking they would be.
Disclaimer: I think suicide bombers are generally BAD, CRAZY, NO-ACCOUNT people because they target the defenseless. The inculcation within Palistinian culture that it’s cool to be a suicide bomber is a BAD, BAD thing, if anything because it’s a counter-productive and self-defeating strategy (though it’s definitely attention-grabbing). Though I don’t like that there’s a difference between the lives of civilians and non-civilians, I understand that it exists. But I don’t think this fucked-up-ness is isolated to Palestinian or Arab culture. I think we’re quite fucked up too. We just come up with better explanations to justify it.

[gobear]

You want to condenm Mhengistu/derg/Ethiopian government then fine, flame on. However, if you want to condemn Ethiopian(or Eritrean) society as a whole(especialy with such an argument as “evil”) I will “open all the firey gates of hell”.

See, you’re confused. Condemning the society (secret trials, mass murder, starvation as a political tool) is NOT the same as condemning the people. Ethiopians and Eritreans are fine people, and their culture, their restaurants and shops, are a great contribution to the Washington, DC, area. The society they endured in the 1970s was a living hell, though.

In the same way, Palestinians are fine people, but their society is deeply screwed up. When kids are encouraged to commit suicide/murders, that’s fucked up. When newspapers print anti-Jewish garbage, that’s fucked up.

[Efrem]

*Originally posted by Revtim *
**

Well, to be honest, I’m not just blowing off steam. When I think long and hard, and try to reconcile my belief that people should be able to follow whatever cultures and mores they want with my belief that people should not be made to suffer, my desire for suffering to end is greater and always wins.

I’m not saying I have a solution, like going in and bombing countries that perform clitorectomies and installing our own laws (clearly that would cause suffering as well), but I’m not going to justify it thinking “well, it’s their culture, I have no right to judge.” I can and will judge these horrific practices and any institution that supports them, whether it be a person, a city, a country, a church, a government, a religion, a culture, or an entire planet. **

Who says clitorectomies are right? Misinfromed judgements, writing thing off as “evil”, wholesale condemnations, bigotry, is the equailent to pluging your ears while running off screaming. It is to not only to be Ignorant, but to revel in it.

However, I guess it is easier fo people to realy on bigotry then strive for understanding.

[Efrem]

*Originally posted by Jodi *
**Ah, yes, the squishy nonjugment of the truly amoral. **

It’s a lot better then the hard “wholesale” judgemnet of the ignorant.

[Efrem]

*Originally posted by Maeglin *
**We don’t have the right, we have the fundamental duty to judge and to be judged. And when the conduct of others, even entire societies, crosses the line of acceptable conduct, we have every obligation to condemn it wholesale. Naturally, we have every obligation to make sure our condemnations are grounded in undistorted fact.

And who is to be the judge of what is acceptable or not?

I am. I am a man of the west, and I will impose my mores, my rationality, and my judgment on the rest of the world. And I fully expect everyone to do the same, each with different points of view and different backgrounds. Sure, I am very interested in the reasons for phenomena, especially ones as bizarre and unpleasant as suicide bombings. You can explain to me how suicide bombing is internally consistent with Palestinian dogma, how much the Palestinians have been oppressed, how much they hate us. It is all worth knowing, and it is surely essential to finding a permanent solution to the problem of displacement, poverty, and ethnic conflict.

But at the end of the day, Palestinian society supports violent self-destruction but does not permit even rudimentary sexual freedom for women.

This is seriously fucked up. And no amount of sophism, semantics, or explanation of context will change that. **

The use of “wholesale judgement” is to refuse to dig deeper, it is to write things off at “face value”. That is the “right” we don’t have. That is to cast judgement without knowledge.

[CRorex]

Hrrm I vaguely remember Islam saying something about how its wrong to kill the innocent… I find it interesting that the woman in question had no problem with possibly blowing up women, children, other muslims or Jews sympathetic to their cause. But she did have a problem with wearing makeup.

It actually sounds like a lame ass excuse for her backing out of it. This is of course overlooking the fact that she ended up having her story told in the press, which makes is seem even more far-fetched.

Sounds like BS to me.

And Efrem, you’re missing one point.

Yes there are some religious leaders condeming the suicide bombings.

BUT THEY ARE NOT THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS IN THE PALESTINIAN STATE!

We aren’t dealing with a region of the world with modern communication or free discussion of ideas. Mostly there are pockets of people isolated by education, literacy or financial means to get information outside of their specific region. It doesn’t matter if someone 2,000 miles away is saying this is immoral, or wrong odds are that they won’t hear that.

Or they’ll go back to declairing the person who disagrees with them to be a bad muslim or a colaberator with Israel (which in the Palestinian Authority means no trial, either an actual lack of a trial or the lack of a fair trial by western standards, and a speedy death).

Its always seemed as if religion has little or nothing to do with events in the middle east. It comes down to politics of individuals who can manipulate the population into achieving their goal. Look at the influence from Lebanon with the current rash of suicide bombings…

They managed to get the Israeli’s to pull out of southern lebanon after a heavy wave of suicide attacks. Which wasn’t sucessful due to the suicide attacks as such. It was more that the Israeli military could accomplish the same from their side of the border and be exposed to less of a threat.

Then you had those terrorists/whatever the hell they are go from southern lebanon to the Palestinian controled territory and train organizations there. Also, you had the apparent ‘victory’ of suicide bombings in lebanon. Which in a recent NPR news story, showed the Palestinians a way to get the Israeli’s out that worked before.

The only problem here is that none of the palestinians realized that its not the same situation. Occupation of southern lebanon was totally unimportant for the survival of the Israeli state. However many of the cities and key regions they want are important.

Oh yeah, and EVERYTHING can be condemned wholesale. Murder, child molestation, wearing neon green and black, squid sorbet, reading those godawful Xanth books (gee its florida and lets have sex) and anything and everything else you don’t agree with.

Trying to change someone’s opinion in an arguement is the first step to repression…

If all of you don’t want to sound so high handed you might want to stop denouncing each other and try to throw out new pieces of information for each other to consider, so each of us can have a clearer picture and come to our own conclusions.

[gobear]

Efrem, you keep calling every other poster in this thread, misinformed, bigoted, and ignorant because we disapprove of mass murder? How does that make any sense? Are you saying that we can never condemn immoral acts? Better dissolve the courts then!

Who says clitorectomies are right? Misinfromed judgements, writing thing off as “evil”, wholesale condemnations, bigotry, is the equailent to pluging your ears while running off screaming. It is to not only to be Ignorant, but to revel in it.

Again, you imply that clitorectomies are not right, but you are outraged if anyone says it is wrong. Please explain.