bolding mine
This comment is what makes me want to scream. When December uses the broad brush term Palestinians in reporting an event perpetrated by a specific sub-group, for which he even provides a reputable cite, the term even used in the original report he gets flamed on and on.
But when you Andros report Israeli atrocities of similar nature (which I’m fairly certain you can’t back up) , you are highly lauded or at least uncontested.
What am I missing here?
How about a fan page for an Israeli terrorist who murdered dozens of Paletinians in a suicide attack. And there are plenty more where that came from–just google “Baruch Goldstein” and you’ll see that the hatred and bloodthirstiness for some Israelis can be just as bad as it is for some Palestinians.
An IQ above room temperature. You may certainly dispute the relative incidence of barbarism on both sides, but it is utterly ignorant to claim that there have been no “atrocities of similar nature” committed by Israelis.
I agree that the cited incident is indeed a horrific example of supra-Kafkaesque abuse of power and murder. I also applaud december for his compassion towards the poor teenager and mother in question.
Shodan, I’m afraid the overreactions to the thread are all down to history (see cites on previous page), and to the not-so-clever leading questions in the OP:
Note he doesn’t mention names. This is the usual mistrepresentation of a pro-human rights position as being exclusively pro-one-side-or-the-other. It is clear to me that there are no posters on the SDMB who “have a preference in favor of the Palestinians over the Israelis” where it comes to innocent civilians, though there are plenty who abhor Sharon’s policies and/or Arafat’s intransigence. Through use of specious reasoning, december impies that a non-pro-Sharon position is an anti-Israeli position. This a straw man. He himself has admitted that:
Because he thinks thus, I guess he has problems understanding impartiality.
This is undeniable, but is not logically linked to the first sentence. This statement is irrelevant.
Of course we agree that the incident is detestable. However, the rhetorical question put here is not asking that. It implies that acknowlegement that the incident is detestable is acknowledgement that the incident is representative of the PA as a whole (or by the title of the OP, “Palestinians” as a whole), or Arafat in particular, by association. grienspace, december writes “Palestinians”; andros writes “some” Israelis.
Hence all the name-calling.
I believe that the point greinny was attempting to make was that if we wish to chide december for his use of the word “Palestinian” vs. the specific group which committed the attrocity (and we do), then we should simliarily chastize the use of the word “Israeli” when commenting on attrocities committed by certain factions of the other side.
What I’m not cetain of, however, is which group of Israelies is identifyable w/the torturing, and given the link from Beagle above, torture does seem to be an acceptable device to the Israelis
Moreover, December thinks that, because some Palestinians committed this horrific act, somehow it invalidates the merits of Palestinian grievances. It’s completely specious reasoning, of course, but that’s never stopped him before. what I find most galling is that because December equates being pro-Israel with being pro-Sharon, he makes it impossible for posters who support Israel but despise Sharon to be in his corner.
December needs to stop beating this deceased one-trick pony.
If that was grienspace’s intent, wring, I apologize. There is, however, a difference betwen using “Israeli” or “Palestinian” as an adjective describing “atrocity” and simply ascribing an atrocity to all Israelis or Palsetinians. Surely, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre does not imply that all Texans are engaged in murder-by-chainsaw.
POint taken, and I agree.
Or at least, the adjectival usage allows more room for interpretation. I suppose it could be read as tarring all Israelis or all Palestinians, though that would be an unreasonable reading in a context where the speaker was arguing for not tarring everybody on the opposing side with that side’s excesses. The OP, on the other hand, invites everyone to see his daily parade of horribles as reason to condemn “the Palestinians,” and as reason to support “the Israelis.” Nuance is apparently quite alien to him.
I’d like to know, if December is so irate about the evil Palestinians, does he not exercise his right of aliyah, buy a ticket to Israel, move into a West Bank settlement, and put his own ass on the line?
I have tried to respond to the content of each comment.
<<Duck Duck Goose – "that’s terrible, but what do you want from us? >>
That’s a good question. Some of the responses demonstrate why this thread is needed. Yes, this is terrible, but there is a need to educate posters like Samclem (“bit of minutiae”) and Cessandra (“petty little point”).
<<Samclem – “I find YOU as detestable as I find all the beasts in this tragic conflict.”>>
This is typical of the numerous “shoot the messenger” responses. Not a valid debating point. I’m sure you wouldn’t seriously equate the expression of unpalatable opinions with the murder and maiming of dozens at a Passover Seder.
<<andros and others alleged that some Israelis have done comparable things.>>
Even though this is The Pit, I would appreciate more detail and some cites, so we can judge whether this accusation is true or merely a statement of anti-Israeli bigotry.
Thank you for your support, **milroyj, Shodan, grienspace ** (and jjimm for partial support.)
Sparc, Reeder and others correctly point out that I have posted about other Palestinian atrocities. So what? Is there a quota for complaining about Palestinian atrocities? Do you assert that we’re allowed to point out one or two, but after that, we’re supposed to keep our mouths shut?
BTW Sparc, London_Calling, note that Germany, the UK and the United States all donate money to Arafat. There is a real possibility that the three of us may have helped pay for this murder and torture. That bothers me.
<< samclem writes, “You’re trying to defend the indefensible”…>>
Note that he’s the one sticking up for torture and murder,
<<TwistofFate and wring questioned the use of the broad term “Palestinians” in the OP.>>
I was following the Associated Press article, which described the torturers as, “Palestinian gunmen.”
<<Some of you may have been unaware of the link between Arafat and al Aksa.>>
http://www.zoa.org/pressrel/20020314a.htm
<<John Corrado – The next time he spouts that the Palestinian cause must be without merit or morality because of the extremists that claim to be supporters of it, someone will go: “Right on! Now, of course, you must also agree that the United States military is without merit or morality because of the actions of extremists like Lt. Calley, Lt. Kerrey, and numerous others during the Vietnam War.” >>
This is a serious comment, and I will give it a serious response.
[ul][li]First of all I did not claim in this post that the Palestinian cause is “without merit or morality.” However, I do believe that the morality of a culture should be considered, just as it was when South Africa practiced apartheit. YMMV[]Also, when evaluating the propriety of Israel’s defensive actions, one shoudl note the kind of barbaric groups who are attacking them.[]Note that the atrocities committed by Calley and (allegedly) Kerrey were not official policy. Calley was punished for his misdeed. However, the atrocity described in the OP was official al Aksa policy, not just an extremist individual within al Aksa.[/ul][/li]<<Sparc pointed out that 21 of 25 posters disagreed with me.>>
No matter how many disagree, I will continue to disapprove of an official policy of turture and murder.
<<gobear – "It’s a happy place where opinions become facts simply by wishing, and he need never admit incovenient data that might cause him to think his side is ever less than pure and just. ">>
That’s a good comment, but it doesn’t seem to apply here (at least not to me.) My OP was based on an Associated Press story. What “inconvenient data” am I failing to admit? Is this an example of projection?
Several things.
Firstly, I don’t think I flamed december, and I don’t really care if I get flamed myself (or lauded, for that matter). Palestinians have committed acts of horrible aggression. So have Israelis. If people cannot understand from the context of my posts that I’m not tarring all members of those groups, then I’ll apologize and make it more clear.
Secondly, I said comparable, and I meant comparable. Not identical, comparable. You clearly disagree, and that’s fine. I’d happily provide examples of Israelis participating in abhorrent acts, but I’m not at all certain it would make any difference to you. Are there any examples I can offer to keep you from calling me a liar again, or is your mind made up?
December, all you got out of my post is an assertion about Israel?
I honestly thought you were better than that.
Would you mind reading my first post again, please, and addressing it?
December I know that you know this, but your attempt to ‘answer’ the point re: your use of the word “Palestinian”, falls quite short.
It is one thing to describe the person with an adjective
“that black man” or “a black man”, vs. using the adjective to describe the person “Palestinians did this”. No, ‘palestinians’ didn’t do that, a sub group did, and as John C points out that tactic can in fact be used to tar and feather damn near anyone, especially the US.
you point out that Calley’s actions were’nt the official governmental position, while ignoring other examples (slavery, the Japanese camps during WWII), and most poignantly, the example that Beagle demonstrated, support of torture as an appropriate response/device.
And the rest of your post is most akin to the “they did it first and they’re worster” sort of comment one expects from a small child.
Barbaric actions from one group does not mean that the group opposing them shouldn’t be condemned for using barbaric methods themselves.
Incidently, we here at the Straight Dope do apply a quota when it comes to the amount of bigoted and misconstrued propaganda a poster can spew forth before they get their one way ticket out of here. And I can tell you, december, that your quota is being discussed as you read this.
The problem is that you continue to paint the Palestinians as some amorphous entity, within which there is only one POV, one policy, one mindset: The radical/militant/extremists are no more representative of the whole than you are of US society.
Fact is december, it suits your cause to misrepresent the truth. Lets take but one very simple example implied in this OP. Encouraging stereotyping:
‘Palestinians’ are radical militants = ‘Jews’ are hooked nose money grabbers.
It ain’t exactly fighting ignorance.
Also, hiding behind your apparent reliance on the AP report itself holds no water given your record of writing to various publications because of their perceived (by you) bias. You’re not that stupid.
Again, I don’t want you gone from this board but I really think you need to approach things more constructively because, at the moment, you are propagating more ignorance than you dispel, IMHO.
You’re probably right DDG, I would however point out that the strong language on my part in this case wasn’t directed at the OP but at his moronic twin milroyj. Before I do at least try to follow DDG’s advice I will try to make a more balanced insert in an attempt to show Shodan, Beagle and some others why I get so absolutely infuriated by december’s posts on Israel, and why they are IMO completely unacceptable as part of the debate.
See that’s the rub. I care deeply about the US, I think that the Israelis deserve a far better rap than they get by many of the Arabic nation’s leadership and I care deeply about the EU. On top of that I care for Arabic culture, having grown up in the midst of one of the European varieties of it and spent quite some time in Arabic regions I have some visceral understanding of it as well.
Now, the bigot cliché goes that the US is biased to Israel and the EU is biased to Palestine. In fact that’s not true. Both EU and US policies are more favorable to Israel, maybe the US slightly more so, but that’s splitting hairs. It is also true that both the US and the EU at this point support the creation of a Palestinian state as a potential means to end the conflict in Israel.
In Europe the vocal response from the moderates has far more outlet than the voice of the extremes on any end, although critics of Israel get more voice than in the US. In the US the moderates and the extreme pro-Israel voice has about equal attention. This leads to some of my fellow Europeans passing blanket judgment on Americans as bigoted Israeli ass sucking Islam haters. That’s obviously just as much bullshit as december and others on the US loony fringe claiming that Europeans are bigoted Arab ass sucking Jew haters. I think that the difference partly leans back on that the US has a larger Jewish population while the EU has a larger Muslim population.
The sad truth is that anti-Muslimism is an increasing problem in both of our unions, while anti-Semitism is a lesser problem (although the UK and France are slightly, but ever so slightly worse off than the average when it comes to hate crimes against Jews).
Each time december says something like this:
Followed with exemplification of Palestinian horror without balanced commentary he perpetuates the image of the ugly American. That it happens to be the voice of a significant minority doesn’t make it less potent in sowing dissent where the majority doesn’t embrace one. The effect is that each time this lie is perpetuated it adds a little pebble to the wall that rises between the EU and the US, in the end the vast majority who are actually agreeing are looking over that fence and from the US side the Europeans look like a bunch of bigoted anti-Israelis and from the EU side the Americans look like a bunch of bigoted anti-Palestinians.
We haven’t seen any of the European loony fringe with december’s level of intelligence and politeness appear on the board while I have been around. We have seen at least a few complete morons with the same but reversed views come and go. I reacted just as strongly to them and if you care to have a look my flame thrower went off just as hard at for instance Power_Station as it does on december (save that it was easier to spit and roast those fish since they were smart as cods and very few if anyone in the regular SDMB EU contingent would give them any support – maybe because we are fewer and tend to generally be pretty favorable to the US).
To sum it up: as a man of dual American European culture with a mild bias towards Israel and yet a great love for Arabic cultures I just can’t stand seeing someone be counter productive towards the cause of the Israeli people while portraying the ugliest side of both my cultural heritages and defaming another culture that I have certain appreciation for. That he also gives the less intelligent quadrant amongst my European brothers and sisters a stereotypic cudgel to swing against my American brothers and sisters loads my spark with some extra static.
Sparc
I would love to hear how this thread merits a banning. This is the pit, and the post is based on a news story. December, though obviously biased, hardly attacked anyone. I thought someone had to name names in order to be an asshole. It was more like everyone came in and said, “that’s me you’re talking about, you fucker.”
Man, sometimes this place is like eastern Europe pre-1990. Ah, but I love it. Please don’t ban me.
december you mention South Africa.
Tell me did the terrible terrorist actions carried out by the ANC mean that the fight against apartheid should have been dismissed?
Or the fact that some South African blacks have done horrible things to children in the name of their religion mean that the quest for equal treatment was misplaced?
The action is detestable. But that’s not what you’re trying to get across is it?
Please show how samclem has at any point here stood up for those who commited this act?
December, I honestly don’t think of you as either a bad or stupid person but your one sided soap box rhetoric is painfully dumb.
Beagle, his phrasing in the OP suggests that if you question Israeli action in the Middle East you support the Al Asqua Martyrs.
This is a grossly offensive misrepresentation of peoples opinion, and he continually does it.