Pampalona celebrates summer with the running of the fucking idiots

The BBQ Pit
21

While I am morally opposed to bullfighting, as such, I also recognize the long tradition and pseudo-religious significance involved. Therefore, I refuse to be a party to it, but do not think it should be “banned”.

However…if they made a couple of small changes, it might be more acceptable to some.

  1. The Matador gets only 2 knives, 12 inches long, to fight with. He gets 2 knives, the bull gets 2 horns. Seems more fair.
  2. He’s on foot.
  3. No assistants.
  4. If he kills the bull, then he must eat the entire animal himself (less hooves, hide, horns, etc.) before he is allowed to kill another.
22

Anthracite
As you have doubtless read Jack Batty made an altogether puerile comment comparing me to a fictionalized serial murderer. I however, did not equate the hunt and bullfighting. I am suggesting that the hunting society of the Lascaux artisans did in fact ritualize that which sustained them, namely their food source. Had they chosen not to, we wouldn’t have the paintings.
The bullfight, as I see it, is a ritual celebrating that which sustains the society, the slaughter of the herd. The two societies are different in that one is made of nomadic hunters, and the other employs animal husbandry.
Darwin’s Finch argues that since the time has passed when such things are required, that the ritual, hence the bullfight be abandonned. In fact, they are not required. I am not arguing that bullfights are a must in society, simply that they are not sport. It is also unproductive to introduce phraseology like that found in your parenthetical.

Oh yeah. I concluded that on Earth. :stuck_out_tongue:

23

Note to Spielberg: sequel is shoo-in for Best Picture with above formula. Lose the Osment kid, and get Billy Bob Thornton on the phone.

24

I believe that the Portuguese don’t kill the bull in their bullfights. Any cites?

I think that the bullfight is a symbol of man’s dominance over nature. It follows predictable cycles, and thus, can be tamed and controlled. However, sometimes it strikes back, reminding us that the struggle is dangerous.

The bullfight is also a symbol of Spain. The country has evolved an entire culture around it. The costumes are beautiful and the movements deliberate and practiced. Picasso often drew the bull as a symbol for Spain. I personally find it fitting that of all the countries that could do it, it seems that the machismo of Spain that fully latches onto it.

We think the Gladiatorial fights were barbaric, but at the same time, see how they entertained a crowd of a chaotic and shifting world. The bullfight is much the same way. It is a way of man exerting dominance over his environment to remain in control of part of his life.

The bullfights may be barbaric. However, they are an integral part of Spain’s culture.

25

There are no-kill bullfights in the US. A few months ago, a family member attended one in La Gloria, Texas. She became an instant convert, and I have come to the conclusion that I’m gonna have to attend one before I can make up my mind pro- or con-.

(no this wasn’t a bunch of drunk farmhands, it was the real thing.)

26

Note to those who may be worried: just arrived in Valladolid, which is nowhere NEAR Pamplona :wink:

FWIW, I see both points of view (as to bullfights, that is; the Sanfermines just strike me as bloody stupid - remind me to tell you about the dudes who throw themselves out of windows sometime). Of course as a North American I understand the majority of the points of view expressed above.

However, I also see the Spanish side of it: the bulls are specially bred for the ring and if the corrida went, the bulls would too; a corrida really doesn’t last that long, and the artistic impression of the thing largely consists in how cleanly and swiftly the bull is killed. We kill animals for a lot of frivolous reasons, and a centuries-old ritual is of questionable frivolity to me. (Note: literally, questionable.)

Haven’t been to see a bullfight while in Spain, because I don’t think I could personally stomach it. But as I say, I intellectually understand the Spanish side of it as well.

27

Symbol of Spain? So what?

For a long time, killing and enslaving Africans was considered an “integral part of Dutch culture” as well. You’ll notice how we don’t do this anymore.

Any, and I repeat any (so called) tradition can be judged at any given time. Bullfighting can be too. Conclusion: in today’s society, there is no room for a form of entertainment that requires the torture of an animal.

Although I’ll admit I’m gonna miss those TV images. I’m always jumping up and down, rooting for the bulls.

28

As surely as summer follows spring, every July someone posts the same OP when the TV news show, once again, the running of the bulls. Never mind that the running of the bulls is not bullfighting and the bulls are not hurt in any way. The bulls get an eight minute trot where if they are lucky they can toss a few Americans up in the air. Because there’s loads of Americans with their Hemingways under their arms and it seems a disproportionate number of them get caught. Of the three injured yesterday one was a 19-year-old woman from Kansas, another a 19-year-old Australian man (cite). If people from those countries stopped going to Pamplona the running of the bulls would not be such a huge tourist attraction. It is done to attract tourists.

CNN reports “The members of PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) ran through the streets naked. Local police did not arrest them, chalking it up to the town’s party atmosphere.” I’d like to see that happen in America, the land of tolerance.

CNN also reports the running began in the 1600s. At any rate, the running of the bulls last less than 8 minutes and the bulls are not hurt in any way. Compare that to American rodeos.

Bullfighting is another thing alltogether and, while I am not about to defend it, I think it is not as simple as condemning it as a barbaric practice. Far worse things are going on in the world today.

29

Were the Flying Wallendas certified public accountants? …
What … in the name of Jimmy Dean does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

New’s flash: We aren’t cave men anymore.
And as the point has already been made – a primitive community or society hunting for food so that they may survive, is slightly different than the butcher of an animal as a spectator sport.

(“puerile comment”. {snort} Whoda thunk? In the Pit no less}

30

I have lived in Spain, and without being in favour or against bullfighting, it is not sport. It might not be culture to some people, but the closest comparison is opera. Highly stylised, very operetic, with 18th century garbs and archaic weapons.
A lot of the Spanish oppose the practise, for the same reason a lot of people here have expressed. It survives to this day because it’s big business. During the Franco era, it was a way to get rich and leave poverty behind for poor kids working a draught stricken farm. Virtually no other way was possible. Even to this day it’s a very big industry, enrichening breeders, promoters, all the fighters ASF. I do have cites for this, but my library, is all in boxes in the basement. You just gonna have to take my word for this.
An excuse often given is that this breed of bull is not your ordinary bovine creature. It’s an aggresive sort, which simply would not live, if it wasn’t for the bullfight. I’ve also heard the argument that these bulls live a rich and meaningful life(!) wallking green pastures and being pampered up till the event, which supposedly is better than how cows are treated in the dairy and meat industries.

No, bulls are not killed in Portugal.

Alll this said. I think that bullfighting makes an easy target. It clearly strikes people as barbaric beyond normal to have animals killed, not only for enjoyment (meat) but for entertainment as well. Bullfighting is highly visable and therefore get’s a lot of attention from Peta and the likes.

However, for any of you Americans, thinking “those barbaric Spaniards, they should really get their act together,” I provide this link on rodeos. Let’s not even get into foxhunting.

Note all caveats. Don’t slam me, I worked as a journalist in Spain and studied up on the subject. I’m only presenting the arguments. The only way for Bullfighting to go away, is for every Spanish person ban it, taking the money away from the industry. No matter what Peta does, it will not change what’s happening there. I also think that we should start looking in our own backyards first, before we pick on easy targets abroad.

31

It doesn’t make a whole lot of difference whether bullfighting is called sport or entertainment or ritual, since these all boil down to the same thing: cultural endeavors that are not “necessary,” just as it’s not necessary for anyone to have a Christmas tree in their own home or to watch a bunch of castrated horses run around a track.

And yes, bullfighting is cruel. But I think it’s absurd to say that it’s any more cruel than the way cows, pigs, chickens, etc. are used and eventually slaughtered in the U.S. - on a vastly larger scale - in service of our own cultural endeavors. Big fucking deal if it’s done out of sight of our sensitive eyes, or if the killing is done by machine rather than by hand, or if it’s done for food. It certainly is not “necessary” for us to eat all this meat. All societies use and kill animals for their own culturally defined purposes (Thanksgiving turkey, summer afternoon barbecue, hot dog at the ballpark), and it’s the height of ethnocentrism to assert that our animal-slaughtering industry is somehow less barbaric than the killing of a few animals in a highly ritualized public spectacle.

Fucking barbarians, indeed.

32

>> The only way for Bullfighting to go away, is for every Spanish person ban it

Yes, it moves huge amounts of money, a lot of it, if not a majority, from foreign tourists, many of them American. Maybe Congress could pass a law making it illegal for US citizens anywhere in the world to run with the bulls or to attend bullfights?

33

As sailor put forward earlier the running of the bulls is quite a different thing than bullfights altogether, except maybe for the fact that there is a bullfight on the afternoon of each day of the run. So I’ll leave the bullfight stuff aside.

A more complete answer to the OP than my previous one:

Running with the bulls might be an idiotic testosterone driven daredevil event for American frat boys and middle class Aussie bar-brawlers in some peoples eyes.

Locally it’s viewed quite differently. It’s an act of machismo no doubt, but it’s also a way to bring together the community in celebration of values and virtues that were once essential for survival and still play an important part in the local culture.

We foreigners (Spanish as well as international) are welcome guests in as much as that it brings quite a huge flood of money to the city every year and that the Pamplonians are proud to show off their heritage. We are also a hated pestilence by some locals because we do turn the whole thing into a sangria soaked media circus, infused with the stench of urine and punctuated by brawling and mass-hysteria without having the cultural depth to partake in the right way.

Same thing goes for most European festivals of similar nature, be it October Fest in Munich, the Palio in Sienna or the Orange Wars of Ivrea. These traditions go back hundreds of years - well October Fest is quite a youngster stemming form the late 19th, but still. In the 20th century these grew to be international events of some significance and hence attract party freaks form all over the world – I can’t say for sure if that is mostly good or bad. I guess it’s good in as much as anything that brig various cultures closer to each other is good in my viewpoint.

From the outside it might look a funfair or a festival like Woodstock. For the locals it’s more like Thanksgiving, or Passover or X-Mass. A time for celebration of the fundamental values that make their culture into what it is as well as an occasion to connect with friends and family. On that note you might want to consider that the running of the bulls is actually only one small, but significant part of the San Fermin festival, that being the holiday of the patron saint of Pamplona. Similarly other European fests of this nature are Catholic or Protestant holidays with local significance, mostly it’s Mardi Gras or Easter that sees an abundance of this kind of crazy shit.

So you don’t like the idea of being chased by a score of rampant bulls? Fine, then don’t do it - you’re probably far more sensible than us who find it mildly amusing risking our lives with such, admittedly idiotic activities. I’ve only run once, but I try to go visit every other year, because I have friends there and it’s a great reason to meet up and pay ones respect to their roots and culture, and it’s one fucking humdinger of a party I’ll tell you.

You want to stop it? Forget it, it can only stop if the socio-cultural values dominant in Pamplona and/or Spain change significantly enough for it to become redundant or immoral. As it is, it has evolved into a multi million dollar event that brings Pamplona pride in the world and is going to be very hard to get rid of.

But if you want to be holier than thou and condemn the Pamplonians for the running while standing silent when for instance tens of thousand Oregonians go to the rodeo every year - go ahead, don’t expect my sympathy with your biased cause though.

If you want to argue the issue, let go of Pamplona and grab the bull by the horns for real – asking whether any culture is justified to taunt other animals as a part of exercising that culture would be more fair. Of course as far as bovines specifically are concerned the Hindu would agree on a downright ban, then again they have the poor cobras that they throw to the mongoose, but I guess that’s different since it’s just a yucky snake after all and it doesn’t disturb your upholstered mass consumption reality by running on CNN – plus that those are ‘animals’ playing out their natural behavior and we’re not, right?

Sparc

34

Correct! That’s the law. Paint me impressed, I’m portuguese.

I doubt the bulls are any happier this way, they get to suffer on their way to the slaughterhouse (because yes, they eventually die, just not on a public arena). I don’t have any ideia how they are killed there but I bet it isn’t pretty.

But our bullfighting in much different, done on horseback and much more beautiful if I may say so, although equally bloody. I don’t enjoy it but I love horses. Then there are ‘forcados’ who dominate the bull on foot (a group of people who stops the bulls charge). That’s interesting and takes some guts! Oh and the bulls have their horns cut, which seems to me to strip him of any dignity, any symbolic meaning whatsoever. On the other hand I admit to having only passing knowledge about nuestros hermanos’ traditions. But strapping the Bull’s testicles is pretty fucking barbaric!

There a big controversy here in Portugal about opening an exception to a small village that has the tradition of killing bulls on the town square. The last political party instituted fines and declared it not a crime. In other words they didn’t have the balls to take a stance. Of course I disagree about opening an exception for “tradition”. They threatened to haste Spain’s flag hehe! Idiots, their stupid tradition comes before their country.

35

Sparc, I would hope you were above arguing against strawmen like “But if you want to be holier than thou and condemn the Pamplonians for the running while standing silent when for instance tens of thousand Oregonians go to the rodeo every year” and “then again they have the poor cobras that they throw to the mongoose, but I guess that’s different since it’s just a yucky snake after all.” The thread is about Pamplona, and that’s what people are commenting on. (Well, that and bullfighting.) Start threads about those practices, and I’d be happy to comment, as would others, I’m sure.

36

CNN also reports that the bulls are then used for bullfights after the run.

37

pldennison Who died and made you boss of how to carry an argument?
I think sparc makes a very good case. And I also beleive that if we’re to discuss the morality of cilling animals for entertainment (industry/culture/tradition/sport whatever), we must have a moral ground, a base. Even if we don’t share the same morality on the issue, we need to set a standard for which to judge the argument, doncha think?

Folks caring about animals generally think that pelted cuddly things should be treated ‘ethicaly’ but will not hesitate when swatting a fly. Clearly, it’s not just treatment of animals, but what kind of animal we’re talking about. The vegans (and I find them morally twisted and stupid) are at least honest in their delusions, when they refuse any kind of animal protein. People protestting over meat industry and eating fish are just ignorant. Is the suffering of the fish in the net less, than the suffering of the cow in the slaughterhouse? How can we judge this? How can we know.

sparc and I react in about the same way Americans do, when Europeans here questions the death penalty/constitution/gun laws/whatever: “Let us take care of our own damn business.”

And so the media works: It’s easy for CNN to to a bit about naked Peta protesters at San Fermin, on the other side of the Atlantic, confusing bullruns with bullfighting and acting morally superior. I checked for the coverage at the online editions of some Spanish Newspapers and couldn’t find very much about the incident.
If TVE and El País joined in efforts to expose what really goes on and present this to the Spanish public, maybe we could see the start of a change. It’s generational also. Older people are much mkore into Los Toros than younger.
And CNN would show some balls if they exposed the industry behind rodeos.
But my point (and my guess is that it’s sparc’s too) is that the International media and Peta turned it all into a freakshow, gaining mutually from it: Peta got exposure, the broadcast news got rating (sex+violence+moral outrage=Wow!) and the weorld is condemning the ‘barbaric’ Spaniards for this. The moral outrage in this thread, is proof enough.
Use that outrage to end the senseless brutality that’s rodeo, show the way to do it, and prolly the Spanish will follow. It does tie in together.

38

Well exactly. Is this thread about Pamplona, or San Fermin, or the running of the bulls, or bullfighting, or has it perhaps gone into a general discussion about cruelty against animals? The condemnation of which is being used as a straw man to criticize and condemn a cultural event which the OP and many a subsequent poster seem rather less than familiar with in its details.

Because if it is about cruelty against animals I have to compose a completely new reply and take a new stand, even on the aspects of such cruelty inherent to San Fermin, or rather abstain from the discussion as I would.

And Twist, the run ends inside the ccorrida, the bulls are led out from the arena, and smaller bulls with blunted horns are let loose. They then get the pleasure of butting around the hundred few runners how have made it thus far, and trust me they do take some pleasure in it and there isn’t much you can do save run and dodge or be thrown into the air like a crash test dummy. The runners are not allowed to hurt the bulls BTW. Later on in the day there is a bullfight, some of the bulls from the run are used at that fight. Two completely separate events though.

Sparc

39

Gosh, I didn’t get the memo that said we weren’t allowed to point out potential logical fallacies at the Straight Dope anymore. Can you forward me your copy, The Gaspode? :rolleyes:

The reason that they’re strawmen, Sparc, is that you’re assuming that the people opposed to the running or to bullfighting are not opposed to rodeos or whatnot, when you’re not in possession of that information. Or, in the event, you’re phrasing your posts in that manner, with the “Go ahead and stand silent in the face of rodeos, hypocrite” statements.

40

In my copy of that memo - it says that even in the Pit, one should have the courtesy of not brushing of a serious attempt to debate with a “start antoher thread”-slur. It’s the no jerk rule.
But then, I only have some 100 odd posts here, and you have almost 7000, pldennison, so maybe your are in the loop to some information and a memo I didn’t get?