Parenting question about lying - please help!

So… our 10 year old daughter came home from school today, went to the bathroom, and I erroneously accused her of not washing her hands properly (the soap was dry when I checked some 10 mins later.) She told us that she had in fact washed her hands - and when her mom checked, her hands did smell like soap. Her mom believed her… but for some reason, I couldn’t get past the idea of the soap not being wet. So I told her mom that she must have washed her hands some other time (maybe sometime after in the kitchen?)

Anyhow, I wet the soap myself and sure enough, after 3-4 mins it was pretty much dry. While our daughter has lied to us in the past (who hasn’t lied to their parents?) I truly don’t think she lies that much.

I REALLY dislike falsely accusing her of anything. At the same time, I don’t want her to think that she can get away with lying to us (even though she probably has once in awhile.) Her telling the truth to us has never really been a problem - but she has lied occasionally - typically when she doesn’t want to get into trouble.

Well, when I found out that the soap could dry in a few minutes, I went upstairs, put my arms around her and told her I was really, really sorry for falsely accusing her of not properly attending to her hygiene. I told her that I believed her and that I felt bad about my mistake. While it may be a little difficult for my own ego - it’s absolutely essential that I: a. vindicate her by explaining that I was wrong; b. apologize to her for my mistake; c. show her by example that it’s ok to make a mistake, but it’s important to clear the air as soon as the error is discovered.

Falsely accusing my kid of anything is, to me, the most difficult part of parenting.

My question is this. How do you (Doper parents) deal with those sometimes ambiguous situations - ones where you can’t prove or disprove whether they are lying, but for some reason, in your gut you feel suspicious?

I want to trust and believe her. Am I looking at this from the wrong perspective? I have a nagging suspicion that my problem lies in the area of “…not wanting her to think that she can get away with lying to us”, but I’m not sure.

Is there a “best practice” means for dealing with this? I really want to act in the best interest of the child - I want to build her self-esteem and also the trust between us.

Thanks for any advice or shared experience you have in this area.

-NobleBaron

I don’t have offspring, but I can’t see how what you did to resolve it was wrong, since we all make mistakes. You showed her that being falsely accused of lying might well result in being vindicated. Isn’t the problem when you are punished regardless of whether you tell the truth or not? If you’re going to be punished either way, lying to try to avoid punishment (because, hey, if you get away with it good, if not you’d be punished anyway) is more tempting. You also showed her that you’re able to reason at a level that allows you to figure out what happened too, and it just happened to work out in her favor because she was being truthful. Maybe next time you’d work out the lie.

If she doesn’t lie very often, why worry that she’s getting away with lying? You’ve proven to yourself, too, that she is truthful at times even when you’re suspicious.

You’re already sending her the right message because it’s apparent that honesty matters to you.

It’s like a lot of values you try to teach–reward the good if you can, and you won’t have to worry so much about punishing the bad. If she’s basically a truthful person, then you should be able to find occasions to praise her for honesty. Obviously it’s not meaningful to heap praise on kids for ordinary things. However, there will surely be times when she’s faced with telling you something difficult and chooses the honest route.

I think you handled it well in the end.

I’ll generally give him the benefit of the doubt. The way I see it, either he’s been truthful or not, and that may or may not have consequences down the road. If it does, then he’ll learn more from those consequences than me getting down on him.

For example, we were having a dickens of a time getting him to brush his teeth. Nagging, entrapment (is the toothbrush wet?), “reminding” - nothing worked. He’d just lie and say he’d done it. Until he went to the dentist, who proclaimed his mouth the dirtiest she’s seen in years. Six cavities needed filling. He had to work for me to pay her bill. I paid for a cleaning, but he pays for the cavities.

Guess who’s become a religious teeth brusher?

You say that like it’s a mandatory thing for a parent to do.

Surely you’ve lived long enough to know that false accusations can be really deadly propositions. I don’t know why you would feel like you have free reign to go about making them against your child, just because they are not in much of a position to retaliate. Why didn’t you check out the properties of the soap before making an accusation?

Apologies don’t erase the pain of guilt/punishment once they’ve been done.

All you had to do was check her hands. Clean? Yes, ok, let’s move on. Why even bother to checking the soap?

Some liars are very hard to catch. Luckily, you are not dealing with a politician, but rather a 10 year old child. This should be easy for you until she at least finishes college.

First thing you have to do is notice how she acts when she is telling the truth. When she lies, her behavior should change. I worked as a camp counselor before, and for most kids the change is as blatantly obvious as fidgeting and looking at the ground. Once you notice her behavior is different, that is when you become suspicious and start looking for solid evidence. You can ask follow up questions to have her trip over her own words or you can launch an investigation. In this case, you should have checked how fast the soap would dry before you accused her.

Once she learns how to bullshit (believe her lies, or tell half-truths) you will have a more difficult time with her. BS is hard to spot in a person’s behavior, so what you have to do is ask follow up question and hope that their acting job breaks apart. Let’s say you were trying to find out if she did her homework. You can follow that question with a question about what she learned. That solid clear “yes” answer she gave to your first question should turn into stuttering nonsense for her answer to your second question.

Though you can’t be perfect. If your daughter was smart she would memorize what she learned yesterday in class and tell you she learned that from her homework :D. It is best to accuse her when you are 98% sure she is lying. It is ok to let her get away with lying for the moment, as long as she gets caught later.

Just remember not to stereotype or go with your “feelings”. Catching a liar is a logical process for everyone except Robocop. You have to put some thought and effort into it. The best poker players have a good knowledge of the subject at hand and a good knowledge of their opponent’s normal behavior. If you want to have an advantage over your daughter, you have to have a decent understanding of her normal behavior and a more advance knowledge of the subject you two are discussing. Investigating will give you the knowledge of the subject you need, so before you accuse her, investigate. You did a bad job this time; it seemed as if you relied on her past dishonestly to prove she did not wash her hands. That is wrong, you have to let the evidence prove her wrong.

I’ll hold off on advice on how to get her too be an honest little girl. I’m sure someone else will come along with that.

Whoa Rigamarole, I think you may have missed the point.

When you have kids, it happens sometimes. You don’t ever WANT to falsely accuse your child- far from it. That’s what makes it so difficult when you HAVE done it.

It sounds to me like you dealt with it quite well, especially cleaning up your side of the street afterwards. That kind of thing makes an impression on a kid.

Mine are 6 & 4 and the older one has discovered lying, at least to a small degree.

noblebaron, you can probably remember a time in your life when you lied and got away with it – and you can remember the guilt you felt. Tell your daughter about that time, some quiet time when you are talking about how you remember what it was like to be a kid. Talk about the guilt and what it did to you, and how it coloured your view of the world and the people you lied to.

Then in the future, when it seems like you’re behaving like an idiot with the lie-checking, you can refer back to it as explanation. “I’m just asking because, remember the time I told you about the time I got away with a lie? Well, yeah.” Your daughter will see you as a protector rather than an inquisitor, and 1) be more inclined to tell the truth if she’s lying at that point, 2) forgive you if she’s not lying but you’re questioning her anyway.

You’re bound to make mistakes in this area. The most saintly of children will test out lying, especially if they think a lie will get them out of something odious or get them out of “trouble.” This is just human moral development. Vehemence of denial is not a good indicator of truth-telling, by the way; it can just as often be an indicator of lying in children, and again I say this without rancor. There are no surefire methods to ascertain that the truth will always be told. So your best bet is to instil values related to the ethics of getting away with a lie or a cheat, and to do it in a positive fashion.

Whatever you do, don’t give her access to a fringed afghan! :wink: (Reference to a similar thread I posted a couple of years back for any old-timers out there!)

Really tough issue, that we have dealt with ourselves. How about when the kid comes downstairs with a hunk of her bangs chopped off, and you ask why she cut her hair and she denies having done so! In such situations I always have flashbacks to Bill Cosby routines where he is his dad asking, “How dumb do you think I am?” :smiley:

My only suggestion is that you be scrupulously honest with your kids, repeatedly telling them that trust and respect among family and friends is one of the most important things going, and that having them lie to you about something they did is worse than just about anything they could have done. Admitting your own mistakes is part of this. Ties in with the whole, “We can talk about anything” and “I will do my best to honestly answer any question you ask” themes. Maybe add a little helping of, “You can call me up at anytime and I will pick you up from anyplace with no questions asked – tho we will undoubtedly have a discussion the following morning.”

I’m convinced that no isolated incident such as you mention is going to scar the kid for life. Of course, by the same measure, you have to repeat – and live – the positive messages uh – maybe a zillion times or so to have them permanently imprint upon your spawn.

Keep up the good fight. And be prepared to hear from a lot of folks who advocate different parenting styles/choices than yours.

We do not tolerate lying from our children. They know full well the consequences of lying.

That said, kids will lie. And, there will be times they get away with it. In our family, we give our children the benefit of the doubt and apologize when we have falsely accused them and it turns out that we were wrong. And we lower the boom when we accuse them and it turns out we were right.

The best thing you can do is set examples. Don’t lie to the police officer when he pulls you over for speeding. Speak up when the cashier gives you too much money in change. Don’t brag to your spouse about how you got your buddy at work to clock you out at the normal time when you left early.

You showed your daughter two things…one, you can admit you made a mistake and two, you can apologize for it. You’ll be fine.

I would also advise against asking dumb questions. Asking why someone did something like this is really *telling *them that they shouldn’t have done it. There is no “smart” answer here. Obviously, she cut her hair because she chose to cut her hair. Any “why” is just begging for a fight and she’s going to be made to be wrong. Much more useful to say, “Goodness! You cut your hair! Are you happy with how it turned out, or would you like me to straighten the cut a bit?” or “Oh, dear. This is why I get my hair cut at the salon. Would you like me to call Judy and make an appointment for you? You can pay me back out of your allowance on Saturday.”

When it’s OBVIOUS what they did, don’t even give them an opportunity to lie, in other words. And again, let the natural consequence of their action be the teacher.

This is amazing! Thanks for so many GREAT replies so quickly… I’ve got a ton of things to do at the moment but I would like to respond as soon as I get some time… your time and thoughts are very much appreciated.

Thank you.

-NobleBaron

Don’t sweat the small stuff. Choose your battles well.

I have two kids–a 14yo daughter and an 11yo son.

The daughter is a very good person (even if she doesn’t believe it), to the point that she is scrupulously honest about practically anything (although she will tell “white lies” to avoid hurting someone’s feelings if she can’t get by with saying nothing at all). We trust her because she has proven to us that we can trust her. I’m sure she still lies about little things here and there, but she learned a long time ago that we issue stricter punishments for lying than for anything she is likely to lie about in the first place. If she says her hands are clean, I wouldn’t even check to see if they smelled soapy.

Our son, though, is the kind of child who will tell you that he had nothing to do with the mud all over the family room even while he’s holding the bowl of dirt and water that he made outside before he decided to come in and watch TV. And he seems completely sincere in his statement that he doesn’t have a clue where the mud came from. For him, we do check pretty much everything he tells us, as much as we can. He gets major loss of privileges for lying, but it doesn’t phase him in the least. He also probably gets away with a lot though, since we can’t always gather evidence against him. (However, even for him, if his hands look clean, I accept his statement that he has washed his hands.)

This reminds me of the time my mother accused me of losing her gloves and lying about it; I must have been ten? Eleven? And I loved to wear her gloves and coat outside to get the mail in the winter. Made me feel very glamorous.

I hadn’t lost her gloves. I’d put them back where I found them. She couldn’t find them and refused to believe me.

She spanked me for losing them and for lying to her.

She found the gloves about an hour later, where she had put them, underneath a pile of laundry she’d placed over them.

The oddest thing about this incident is that I don’t quite remember what she did once she realized her mistake; I want to say she ignored it and went on as if nothing wrong had taken place, out of shame/embarrassment/whatever, but that may be my spiteful angry ten-year-old memory playing tricks on me.

I tell you what, though; I’ll never forget the impotence of being wrongly accused and not being able to do anything about it.

So unless you are positive about the truth of the matter, tread lightly. Kids can be quite pragmatic; if you’re going to do the time, you might as well commit the crime.

Thanks a lot for everyone’s feedback on this. The criticisms were especially appreciated because they really made me consider and question my agenda in this.

In my original post I failed to mention that she had been emptying the dishwasher and putting away the dishes when I asked her if she’d washed her hands prior to starting.

She said she had “because (she) just went to the bathroom.”

Coincidentally, I had to use the bathroom and found that she had left a log in the toilet –and I noticed the soap was dry.

This made me think that she had been distracted and forgotten to flush AND been lazy/distracted and not washed her hands. I erroneously thought she had lied to me and was a little angry because I thought she was putting everyone’s health at risk.

Then we confronted her, etc.

My mistake was to let my investigation and judgment of the matter be clouded by my emotions – and these were based on several incorrect assumptions.

A few of you have stated that my detective work was bad. It was.

I should add that I’m a step-dad here and she’s been my step-daughter for about 2.5 years… so I’m doing my best to get to know her. When she was younger, one of the things she used to lie about was washing her hands. First, she wouldn’t wash at all; then, she would only rinse with water. Then, after a month or so of checking (smelling her hands) and seeing obvious signs like bubbles in the sink and a little drip of soap on the hand-pump, we stopped checking on her, thinking that it had become a habit for her. Yet another factor was that two night’s previous I got only 4.5 hour’s sleep and the night before only 5 hours… and, well, you get my point. There were errors made on my part.

So you’ve all really helped me put this into perspective.

Since I feel she’s basically an honest kid, if there are any legitimately ambiguous situations where I can’t prove/disprove her honesty – I’m going to tell her that I believe her. However, if she has lied beyond any doubt, I’m going to come down on her like a ton of bricks (proportionate/appropriate to the “crime”, of course) and make sure she knows that it’s always better to tell the truth.

Thanks again, everyone, for sharing your thoughts on this. You’ve really helped me out.

Regards,

NobleBaron

:eek: But there are some people who get cavities regardless of how well they take care of their teeth. And even if it is preventable, isn’t health care part of a parent’s responsibility??

I think you handled the situation just fine. What I would do is lighten up about the “risking all our lives by not washing your hands” attitude. While proper hygiene is important to learn, you do not need to make the child neurotic about germs. Make it a little more light-hearted, and not so much a matter of life and health, and you may find she will get into the hand-washing habit more often without you having to remind her. You want her to have a strong and healthy immune system, and not to be so afraid of germs that she begins to restrict her activities for fear of catching something.

I have two things to add:

  1. I remember when I was about 6, my mom apologized to me for not believing me when I told her something. It made a HUGE impact on me that my mom respected me as a PERSON and apologized sincerely and respectfully for being wrong. I felt very important and validated as a person, not just a kid.

  2. I worry that noblebaron’s search for the truth is a little overzealous, and that he risks alienating his stepdaughter, maybe not now, but in the near future, by doubting her honesty. Like another post said, “pick your battles”. Accusing someone of lying too often may actually CAUSE her to lie more often, because she may reason “why not? He doesn’t believe me anyway …”

Yes, but he hadn’t been taking care of his teeth, that’s the whole point. He has two parents who never had a single cavity in their lives, so genetics is on his side. When the dentist weighed in with her professional opinion that it was not brushing that caused the cavities, he had no more excuses. I believe basic preventative healthcare is the parents’ responsibility, and of course care for sickness or injury. But this was health care directly required because of his actions, against all parental advice. At 13 years old, he needs to begin learning small, safe and affordable lessons in personal responsibility for his actions. I refuse to be the sort of Helicopter Parent who bails out the kid at every turn until he’s 35.

('Though I should mention that he goes to the city reduced price clinic, so he was only in $10-20 for each filling. All together two video games he had to do without.)

He’s now back at a clean slate. If he continues to brush twice a day, I will pay for any further dental work. If he chooses not to brush, then he chooses to pay for more fillings.