Parents: is corporal punishment of children ever acceptable in your view?

[gracer]

@Shakes

Yep, here comes the train wreck. I’m out folks.

Bye!

If you can’t deal with people who have a different opinion which they explain, give reasons for and then add on to with a personal experience, IMHO is probably not really the place for you in the first place.

[Kobal2]

@Aspidistra

They’re also the only person you’re allowed to send to their room and not let out for half an hour. Anyone else, that’s called kidnapping.

Yeah, but they’re also the only person(s) you’re not allowed to just toss out of your home when they’re being complete dicks, either. It must even out somewhere

[Nava]

@Blackberry

I know you’re joking but obviously I wouldn’t try it with anyone else’s kid. But if it DOES work, it could certainly be better than the kid getting kicked out of multiple daycares causing the parent having to quit their job or whatever. As I said, I haven’t personally dealt with it and I don’t believe everything I hear from physical punishment advocates…but I’ve spent a billion hours with toddlers and been bitten by a few, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was true. I wouldn’t try it more than once though.

I’ve done it, but it wasn’t a real bite, it was a simulated bite (teeth covered, increasing pressure very slowly, in the meaty part of the forearm) and you explain it beforehand, that you’re going to “demo” the fact that a bite hurts but you won’t bite as hard as they just bit you. Also, since it’s something kids do in anger, it should be accompanied by giving them an acceptable outlet for their fury (punching pillows, throwing soft toys in a direction where there is nothing breakable and no people…)

It was not a punishment, it was something to help the kid understand that “being bit HURTS” and that there are some ways to deal with rage that are acceptable and others which are not.

[MrDibble]

@Rachellelogram

Very rarely, when the child does something that threatens their life or limb. Reaching for a hot stove, running out into the street without looking first, sticking a fork into an electric outlet.

I answered “always”, but I don’t consider any of the things you mentioned to be corporal punishment as I understood the OP.

Not that I agree with them as exceptions - if you have time to smack a hand, you have time to just grab the hand and pull it away, IME. But I would class them differently from corporal punishment, somehow, in that I don’t consider smacking a hand reaching for a hot stove to be battery, the way say even a single hand to the bottom for swearing would be.

[MrDibble]

@pullin

I wonder how many of the respondents here actually *are *parents.

Parent of two, here.

[Clothahump]

What amazes me, whenever this topic comes up, is the number of lamebrains who think that a parent spanking a child is the same as a parent beating a child or committing assault.

Positive reinforcement is the way to go - most of the time. However, negative reinforcement has its place, especially when it is couched as a direct result of the child’s actions. Spanking should be the last resort, but it is a viable resort.

[MandaJo]

@gracer

Bye!

If you can’t deal with people who have a different opinion which they explain, give reasons for and then add on to with a personal experience, IMHO is probably not really the place for you in the first place.

Saying that there is “no meaningful distinction” between people that swat a child on the butt after that kid gets out of their car seat in traffic and people that beat their kids with a broom for no reason at all is not just having a different opinion. It’s making a terrible and poorly supported accusation.

[TruCelt]

@Shakes

A problem I have with a lot of these studies is that they assume parents are getting pissed off and hitting their child in the heat of the moment.

Please show us even one such study? I have trouble believing a study which made such an assumption would clear peer review. And yes, I understand that you have paraphrased the language.

[Meatros]

I have two kids (an almost 2 year old and a 5 year old) and there has only been one occasion where I thought about spanking:

My daughter was 3 at the time and I thought she was down for a nap. I had just gone out to get the mail, brought it upstairs and put it on the table. During this time my daughter (apparently) bolted for the door, got outside, and literally ran down the sidewalk. I was completely unaware until about two minutes later a neighborhood boy brought my daughter back. At this time I had closed the door and was about to check on my daughter.

I just about mentally lost it when the kid had my daughter by the arm - as in I was in a panic (I realized I shouldn’t have left the door open and should have checked on my daughter immediately). I tried to communicate to my daughter the importance of staying inside and always letting daddy know where she was. She found it funny and that set me off - I was livid and I wanted to spank her so that she would take what I was saying seriously. I didn’t though because I knew this was primarily my anger talking (and at the time I was too shook up to really critically think about the situation). I took her to time out and she then took what I had to say seriously. Not only did the time out appropriately show her the seriousness of the situation, it also gave me some time to think about it.

I think that spanking can be a tool and should be used in dangerous or harmful incidents (like in the example WhyNot used about her daughter running into the street), but I don’t know if I could actually administer the spanking. If spanking is to be used, it should be very infrequent and should probably end when the kid is somewhere around 6-8 years old.

[Meatros]

@April_R

Oh, I definitely think removing a child and other methods are totally effective. And I don’t think spanking is the only way to teach respect, not at all. And I don’t look down on parents who don’t spank, but I am also annoyed by people who paint spanking as the most horrible crime ever committed against childhood. It’s ridiculous to condemn spanking. Spanking isn’t beating.

I agree, spanking isn’t a beating - but I don’t think spanking would solve the store situation. My daughter has had two ‘fits’ in the grocery store. Both times she was taken out to the car by either my wife or I and had to wait there until the other parent was done shopping.

She no longer throws tantrums in stores.

I strongly believe that had I spanked her, the crying would have continued, granted I don’t actually know because I’ve never spanked her.

@April_R

I am still amazed though at parents who just hold their child in their arms in the hallway at church while they are kicking biting and screaming at their mom, and mom just says, " now sweetie just calm down, it’s not nice to kick mommy." That kid needs a good spanking for kicking the crap out of their mommy not a hug, because talking is obviously not working on them.

Yes, that doesn’t seem effective at all.

[Meatros]

Sevencl, I was kind of curious about something. I really have to wonder how you are going to go about determining who would make a good babysitter. You don’t believe in looking up people’s personal information (arrest records and that sort of thing) - it’s an invasion of privacy after all.

Yet, this leaves you in the peculiar situation where if you did have kids and need to have them babysat, you have no real way of knowing just who you are leaving your kids with… You could be dropping them off with someone who had been arrested for domestic assault or worse.

[Foxy40]

@moejoe

I think there is always a better alternative, but when you’re a parent who has worked all day and cleaned the house and bathed the kids and broken up a few fights and they just won’t go to bed I can see how some parents do the easy thing (spanking) instead of whatever might work just as well but require a lot more patience and energy. There were certainly days when I was really pissed and felt like hitting something, but I never ever hit my kids. I mean, they’re babies, why would you hit a baby?

Also I didn’t want them to learn that hitting was a good problem solving strategy, because it’s not. For anyone.

Unfortunately, it can be a good strategy when nothing else seems to get through. I do not use corporal punishment with my kids until the time I did. The one thing I swore to myself that I would never ever strike a child out of anger. My parents did that. It wasn’t discipline it was their anger and striking out in frustration.

My daughter had a terrible habit between two and three years of age. She would scream at the top of her lungs when frustrated. Ear piercing scream. It was horrible. After a month of this I showed her a wooden spoon and told her I would hit her leg with it and it would sting if she did it again. When she did, I calmly got the small spoon out the the drawn and whacked her on the thigh just enough to sting. I remember the shocked look to this day. The next day she screamed again. I asked her if she had forgotten about the spoon and she shut up. It has never been mentioned again. Time outs made her scream louder, talking to her was useless since she wouldn’t listen but that one little sting solved a month long problem in one day.

I voted very rarely and when I did I meant once or twice in a life if necessary. Not once or twice a week or even a year. I would do the same thing today.

[April_R]

@gracer

Just because you don’t agree doesn’t make seven’s opinion wrong. Being absolutist has nothing to do with it being right or wrong, I’m an absolutist when it comes to slavery but that position is in no way too extreme. There are plenty of countries where all corporal punishment is outlawed, and they did sign the CRC. They’re all “absolutists”, too. They’re also right. The US is right up there with it’s only friend Sudan when it comes to the rights of children.

Spanking, beating, child abuse, it’s the same thing because there is no meaningful way of differentiating between them. You weren’t angry while you hit a little kid? Oh, and you didn’t hit them very hard? And of course it didn’t leave marks, which means…?

**Spanking teaches that being stronger means you are right. It teaches violence is problem solving. It does nothing to show why something was wrong, what the actual consequences of certain behaviours are or how to deal with real-life situations. **

I’ve never spanked, but there was one time I went the “showing them who is boss”-route of violence. It was at a really difficult time where I was working. The manager was on holiday and so was the psychologist. Most of the other people who were working were new, and the guy left in charge was a misogynist ape unfit for working with children. As the proper system of consequences fell into disuse the children’s behaviour spiralled out of control and I was pretty much on my own trying to sort things out. I’d been having trouble with a little boy and this guy told me to take him outside and really show him, scare him. I was so tired, and after all he was my boss. So I did. I firmly grabbed him, dragged him out, forcefully sat him down and gave him an earful. He was terrified, of course. I never felt so ashamed in my life. What a ridiculous thing to do! Duh. I’m bigger and scarier than a little kid. Well done me. Fuck that noise, I knew I would never listen to that imbecile again, and that I would certainly never forcefully assert dominance over a child ever again in such a ridiculous way. Obviously it did nothing for his behaviour, he just resented me for a while and was careful to be naughty behind my back. Physical discipline allows a child to transfer blame and anger to the parent, when you want them to learn that it was their behaviour that lead to negative consequences for them. Eventually we made amends and he was disciplined in appropriate ways which lead him to change his behaviour. Thankfully I’ve never sunk so low as to raise my hand to a child in any way.

Taking away their things teaches them you are stronger and you are right
Taking away privileges teaches them you are stronger and you are right
Forcing them to sit still or be secluded in their room/on the wall/in the corner/in the naughty chair teaches them you are stronger and you are right

Psychological violence through manipulation of privileges, freedom, and possessions is still violence.

Parenting is about balancing your power over your children with respecting them as human beings with thoughts and attitudes all their own. All forms of disciple and punishment are power struggles, intimidation, and exercising of power of the weaker child by the stronger adult. Spanking probably does less psychological damage than threatening to take away their things or privileges every time they screw up.

[MandaJo]

Gracer, another point: I don’t think that your experiences with severely disturbed kids automatically apply. I can readily believe that such children react very poorly to any kind of aggressive discipline. By definition, in many cases, these are kids for whom traditional methods did not work. For others, they are kids that have suffered from terrible abuse and so one needs to avoid even the suggestion of those same patterns.

[April_R]

Parenting is about balancing your power over your children with respecting them as human beings with thoughts and attitudes all their own. All forms of discipline and punishment are power struggles, intimidation, and exercising of power over the weaker child by the stronger adult. Spanking probably does less psychological damage than threatening to take away their things or privileges every time they screw up.

Fixed my typos.

Also my hubs wanted to point out that along with spanking or any form of punishment/discipline it is the parent’s responsibility to show an increase of love by explaining to the child that you still love them and care about them you just don’t like the behavior and explain to them why they were punished and how to avoid punishment in the future.

This works as children get older and are more rational, IMHO, trying to reason with an out of control 2 yr old verses an upset 5 yr old is a completely different situation.

[WhyNot]

@April_R

Also my hubs wanted to point out that along with spanking or any form of punishment/discipline it is the parent’s responsibility to show an increase of love by explaining to the child that you still love them and care about them you just don’t like the behavior and explain to them why they were punished and how to avoid punishment in the future.

See…here’s the part I have huge heaps o’ trouble with. When you’re still using spanking with children old enough to listen to this kind of logic, it seems to me that it’s setting them up to accept domestic abuse from partners as adults. “I love you baby, you just gotta stop making me so mad sometimes!” You know?

[Grrr]

@gracer

Bye!

If you can’t deal with people who have a different opinion which they explain, give reasons for and then add on to with a personal experience, IMHO is probably not really the place for you in the first place.

Gracer, I’ve been here a long time. I’ve had this debate a hundred times before and it always goes nowhere. And the only end result is feathers get freyed and people get hurt.

I really have no desire to do it again. FWIW, I like you as a poster and would like to keep it tat way.

So I’m just going to gracefully back out now before any bad feelings get had.

Regards.

[Sevencl]

@Meatros

Sevencl, I was kind of curious about something. I really have to wonder how you are going to go about determining who would make a good babysitter. You don’t believe in looking up people’s personal information (arrest records and that sort of thing) - it’s an invasion of privacy after all.

Yet, this leaves you in the peculiar situation where if you did have kids and need to have them babysat, you have no real way of knowing just who you are leaving your kids with… You could be dropping them off with someone who had been arrested for domestic assault or worse.

I’m against looking into people without consent. Agencies won’t employ someone who won’t consent to a background check.

Gracer said everything I want to, and like Shakes said, this topic seems to be just asking for trouble, so I’m going to leave now too.

[April_R]

@WhyNot

See…here’s the part I have huge heaps o’ trouble with. When you’re still using spanking with children old enough to listen to this kind of logic, it seems to me that it’s setting them up to accept domestic abuse from partners as adults. “I love you baby, you just gotta stop making me so mad sometimes!” You know?

I do hear what you are saying, and as they get older the corporal punishment has lessened because they understand more and act up less. But I still think that the increase of love and explanation are needed no matter what form of discipline or punishment you employ.

What we struggle with more than spanking in our family is yelling. Because we don’t like to resort or spanking we tend to yell at them more than we should, so we have been working on not yelling.

I dread when they are teenagers, because the first time my daughter calls me a bitch for disciplining her or punishing her for something I will have to exercise every ounce of self control I have to not slap her face.

[WhyNot]

@April_R

What we struggle with more than spanking in our family is yelling. Because we don’t like to resort or spanking we tend to yell at them more than we should, so we have been working on not yelling.

I hear that! My ex’s family are yellers, and it makes me unbelievably anxious. I’m working on the reverse - when I’m angry/upset, I tend to go very very silent and retreat, which can be interpreted as Mom-doesn’t-love-me-anymore. Really it just means Mom was taught that any display of anger is Not Done, and then married someone who did it too much, and she doesn’t know how to do it in between yet.

We all have our Things. I wish you good luck with yours as I work on mine.