Parent, kids are now adults. I can count the number of times I struck them on one hand but I think that each of those times was necessary and most of them were effective.
I think that to be effective corporal punishment needs to be exceedingly rare.
I also think that different kids respond differently and parents need to be flexible, pay attention to how their kids respond to different scenarios and change how they deal with them to compensate. I’ve seen parents digging themselves into a hole with a second child because “well this always worked for his brother” Treating kids differently doesn’t mean you’re showing favoritism, you make adjustments for how adults react and dealing with your kids is more important so why wouldn’t you take the time to figure out what the most effective way of getting your point across is?
Good grief. We aren’t talking about discipline at school. A time out means separating the child from his/her desired activity for a time. Do you really think non-spankers have an empty isolation chamber under the stairs at home?
I’m not disagreeing that “psychological violence” exists in whatever form, I’m disagreeing that it is, in fact, violence and think the term “psychological abuse” is more fitting.[
](Violence - Wikipedia) I don’t know about you, but I don’t get my daughter into her quiet corner by manhandling her, nor does withholding TV and computer privileges come with threats of a spanking if the ban is broken. Control =/= violence. And as it stands, I exert control over some things my daughter wants. So she has to acquiesce to my wishes. That’s not remotely violent, psychological or otherwise. Pretending it is by linking to some (agreed!) horror stories about autistic kids being tortured in solitary confinement until they piss themselves doesn’t make it so.
Plus, do you really want to play duelling expert cites on what constitutes abuse? [
Hippy Hollow, this isn’t far from how I take care of the kids in my charge. (Mostly unruly teenagers with behavior problems, but now I’m frequently in charge of a couple of toddlers. My own 7 month old is a perfect little angel with no discipline problems. Yet.) Carry myself with authority, speak with authority, follow through with consequences. I’ve never had a kid embarrass me in public or hurt themselves or others.
It seems that some of the pro-spanker crowd imagines the non-spankers as the mom on Mad TV’s Stuart sketch (YouTube). That ain’t me, or anyone else in my non-spanking family. We’re teachers, social workers, nurses, and a couple managers, so we are accustomed to speaking for results. The only child in my extended family who is a constant embarrassment and mean little monkey is the niece who is spanked black and blue on a regular basis, and it’s pretty clear that spanking isn’t working, and it seems a matter of time before her exasperated parents either do real damage or receive a visit from social services because some well-meaning on-looker in a parking lot reports the parents for beating the child.
I would never align myself as a “nonspanker” or a “prospanker.” I am charged with the responsibility of raising socially aware people. I’m a former teacher - well, current teacher as well, just my students are graduate students now. In my circle of academics (in the field of education) virtually all of the folks I know occasionally spank. And just like there are ridiculous caricatures of those parents who choose not to spank there kids, there are also silly caricatures of parents who will spank if the occasion and circumstance calls for it.
Another reason why I will spank on occasion has to do with the treatment of Black boys in public schools. This population is overrepresented in special education, disciplinary referrals, expulsions, the juvenile justice system, all the way to prison. It is imperative that my son understands at an early age how to control himself, because frankly the system is set up against him. Black males (and I would posit Latino males as well) have a razor-thin line to tow to ensure they do not end up labeled as emotionally disturbed, ADHD, and other over diagnosed categories where there is a disconnect between the dominant culture and the needs of our children.
I know a significant proportion of Black men in prison were physically disciplined. The thing is, virtually every Black male I know who is a success - professors, creative directors, doctors, teachers, legislators, and other elected official - was physically disciplined as well. In fact, it is exceedingly rare that I encounter a Black man my age who doesn’t know what an ass whuppin’ is, or experienced one first hand. Typically most of us didn’t get a lot, but enough to know that we didn’t want to deal with that - so we studied, stayed off the streets, avoided the knuckleheads, and so on.
And definitely the generation before us are quick to remind us that we don’t know what a true ass whuppin is.
I’ve seen that overrepresentation as well when I taught life skills at a resource school for teens with discipline issues. Young black males (mostly from Nashville, Chatanooga, Knoxville and surrounds) were often channeled into my program for nothing more than classroom disruptions and truancy when most of my kids had felony charges pending. Black kids were my most well-behaved and well-mannered students but from what I picked up, they were taught to measure words and actions carefully because it was universally understood that they should make allowances for others’ racism and expect unequal treatment. It never occurred to me that their self-discipline had anything to do with corporal punishment.
How is this different than saying “scolding, yelling in anger, and being truly verbally abusive to your child, it’s all the same thing because there is no meaningful way of differentiating between them …”
If you mean that the series is a continuum so it’s hard to define an exact division between them for verbal labels, then I agree, but I agree in both cases. That doesn’t mean at all that I can’t distinguish between a light spanking and a sever beating or a mild scolding and true verbal abuse.
I would guess that just about as many kids are subject to true verbal abuse like being told they are worthless, etc. as are subject to physical abuse. In fact I suspect it’s often the same kids. I’m not at all sure it isn’t the verbal abuse that has longer term consequences on development, but this would be hard to tell as it is, as I said, often the same kids.
I’m not saying spanking is correct. I’m simply saying this kind of argument doesn’t convince me its wrong.
Without taking a stance on corporal punishment, I’ll point out the flip side of the dynamic you’re describing: a child who is disciplined with spanking or whupping at home may decide that school punishments like silent lunch or walking laps at recess are insignificant.
I had one kid that I was on the verge of requesting testing for, due to his constant outbursts; I genuinely wondered whether he suffered from Tourettes. But one day I managed to get his dad on the phone. The dad talked with the boy and threatened him with a whuppin if he ever got another call like that, and the kid straightened out.
After that, though, I worried about calling Dad, because I wasn’t sure what a whuppin constituted in that household, and if the dad was abusive, I didn’t want to endanger the boy.
Again, no clear answers, but physical discipline at home may not necessarily improve a child’s behavior at school.
Lol at someone thinking spankings are assault. When your kids are being violent or running around screaming bloody murder in the store, see if just talking to them works. I would b grateful if I was only spanked.
One of the things I often tell my son is, “If you can’t control yourself, I will do it for you.” Then I typically tell him that if he can’t get his stuff together, there are people that will take control of his life. It might be teachers or the gym coach today. Tomorrow it might be the school resource officer. After that it’s potentially the police and the correctional system. (I don’t go to this level of detail with a five year old, but in about three years or so I will.)
Impulse control, minding what you say and how you say it are critical life skills for Black males. Someone bothering you or pissing you off? Learn how to deal with it without flipping out, because if you do, rest assured you will be labeled the aggressor. Stuff like that. At some point the lightbulb goes off in a kid’s head. My biggest fear is that if he doesn’t learn a strong sense of self-disclipine, he’ll slip up and even I won’t be able to plead his case. I have colleagues - professors - who have had their kids expelled from schools and the like. You would think Ph.D. holding scholars would be able to plead their cases better than the unemployed mom in the 'hood, but the same issues affect our kids.
On the other hand, I’m friends with Dr. Alvin Pouissant, who is about the most anti-spanking guy ever. And he’s a Black male scholar.
Information I could have used back when I had some influence over my employees. Not in social work now, back then I chalked up the excellent poise of most of my Black kids to great posture and deliberate eye contact, which I assumed they were taught at home. To a bunch of inexperienced care workers accustomed to slouc hing, sullen poor country kids, the Black youth seemed intimidating or even challenging. That was rarely the case. It was nice to speak with an engaged, responsive kid but it was in glaring contrast to the attitudes of most of our White and Hispanic kids. Often misunderstood, but respected even when feared.
That would be brilliant if spanking worked when used once. The same kids who are screaming and running wild in stores continue to do so each time, even when spanked over and over for the same infraction. How many times do you spank for the same infraction only to have that infraction repeated? At what point does “discipline” cross over to “hitting my kid”?
Sometimes, but often requires escalation, such as losing a toy or priveledge for more than an hour/day/permanently. How do you escalate spanking? Hit harder?
Therein lies the problem. If you have to repeat it for the same infraction, you can’t claim spanking is an ineffective punishment. You escalate: you risk beating the child.
Troppus, I appreciate your different point of view, but it is so different when your child gets older. A 7 mo old doesn’t require discipline and you don’t treat other people’s children the same as you would your own (I used to work with at-risk youth at a residential treatment facility and quickly learned I couldn’t be a mom to them, I had to be a counselor). With the majority of children, you do have to repeat the same “don’t do thats” over and over and over again, and enact the same punishment over and over again until they get it and stop the bad behavior, then move on to a new boundary pushing limit testing behavior. Whether you spank, time out, whatever, you will be repeating yourself several times before they get most things. You don’t have to escalate punishment , you just have to be consistent.