This.
They need to disabuse themselves of the notion they are innocent victims of turmoil in their lives, and accept their role in all of it. No, they aren’t making anyone use the poison, but they are making it an acceptable choice for Kate. Kate has to crash before she can put her life together, and it may kill her instead. The alternative is Kate crashes anyway and takes them with her. That’s life, it’s fucking hard sometimes.
Thanks for responses. I’m under no illusion that any advice I give to anyone about anything will be followed 
it’s really interesting to hear parents opinions, as these aren’t issues I’ve ever had to confront.
Sally has been in therapy a long time, I think Hubby would go with her if she wanted him to do so. That they, especially my BFF, have infantilized Kate is absolutely correct. They have bailed her out of situations over and over – they talk tough, but the kid knows she just needs to wait them out and they’ll come up with money, lawyer (pot possession charge), and on and on.
Sally is a dear friend, but would be a difficult mother to have in some ways. She’s a perfectionist, a hoverer, and very worried about appearances. Hubby is easy-going and gets caught between the warring parties – Sally wants him to always be on her side, Kate wants the same. I was very surprised that he was ready to call the cops.
Their older son had similar behaviors, but suddenly got it together when he was 21yo. He moved out and became very independent.
This is an aspect I find really shitty about Kate’s behavior. Now, I know that taking 10 Tylenol at age 15 can (possibly) kill you, but IMHO she was troubled and did need help but was not intent on suicide; at the time she was running with a group that had access to and sometimes used opiates – a handful of oxy would have been, to my mind, a real intention.
I don’t think she is suicidal at all now, she enjoys using it as a threat because it terrifies her parents. It’s the Big Stick that has shut down uncomfortable/confrontative discussions for the last eight years.
Kate should have been brought up short when she spat on and assaulted her mother. Adults need to know that you don’t physically attack other people without physical and/or legal consequences. Mom should have belted her a good hard one across the face or called the cops. Then Kate should have been put out of the house and the locks changed. Kate’s time at home is done. I have a daughter who will turn 18 and graduate this school year. She knows she is welcome to live with me rent-free for the rest of her life, if that is what she wants to do. She also knows that living with me entails acting like an adult, not an overgrown child. Sally needs to put an end to Kate’s bullshit by not playing along any longer.
I would have lived in a sewer pipe crawling with typhoid under a bridge to escape my mother and living at home!
We do live in an expensive area, but Kate seems to believe she has a right to live in a nice apartment in Princeton rather than a cheaper and shabbier place in Philly with roommates. Of course her parents want her to live in a safe place, but I think Kate would surprise them with her resources if she was booted out of their house.
Another thing I see happening with Kate is that her friend group is moving on and going to grad school far from home, getting married, starting real careers, and so on (I think she makes $15 an hour at a job that has no wide horizon prospects). She’s being left behind as lifelong pals launch their adult lives – she was supposed to have been applying for grad school over the last 18 months but apparently hasn’t done a thing. 24 is still young, but I could totally see the years rolling by and her still at home when she’s 30 and my friends are 65.
Ditto.
Sally and hubby are enabling Kate. You ask if this would be the last straw as a parent. No, because for me it never would have gotten this far. For Sally, it’s a no as well, as Sally is fearful of Kate failing in the real world.
There is a whole family dynamic that needs to be untangled beyond just putting Kate out the door. Otherwise it Kate will be back in the house at the first inkling of trouble.
I just want to point out that there are clearly serious mental health and possible substance abuse issues there that have nothing to do with whether or not Sally has coddled Kate too much.
Correlation does not equal causation, and a lot of the comments here seem to tread very close to saying “if you don’t kick your kid out of the house, or at least charge them rent, then of course they’re going to end up physically assaulting you. And by kicking the kid out, they’ll learn to become high-functioning adults and will never treat you like shit again.”
Of course Kate needs to be removed from the house ASAP. At 24, she’s an adult, and is verbally and physically abusive to her parents. It’s ‘the last straw’ in the same way it would be if a husband spit in his wife’s face then twisted her arm behind her back and pinned her against the wall. The emotions involved are deep and complicated, doubly so because it’s a parent/child relationship, but at the heart of it Sally is being abused by a family member.
Where’s Kate’s father? Is he involved with her life?
Amen to both.
As the father of a 15-year-old girl with emotional issues, the biggest issue to me, before worrying about where she lives or anything else, is that Kate needs professional help.
I want to remind everyone that there’s a middle ground between “I would live under a bridge before I spent another day in that house” and “We let our adult children live here too long and now everyone’s lives are ruined.”
My brother and I lived with my parents rent-free until our mid-20s and I promise you we’re good, functional people who continue to have a good relationship with each other and our parents. We’re adults with mortgages and everything!
But anyway, back to the conversation at hand. I do agree that the parents have brought this upon themselves. I have no insight or advice.
Perhaps Kate should get a choice - stay and contribute through money and actions (like cooking and cleaning) or leave after a set deadline, perhaps two months.
If she leaves, Sally might pay for some things, but should never give Kate money - that is likely to get used for alcohol or drugs.
And Sally should be prepared for Kate to sink lower before she gets better. Sometimes it takes a lot of woe before a person can face her issues.
That might involve cutting off contact for a while, but sometimes that is for the best.
She has it but often skips appointments. Her parents pay out-of-pocket for psych treatment but if she doesn’t not much to be done other than in-patient treatment.
I don’t know if Kate would be more responsible if she were paying $250 an hour herself.
I do care a lot about Kate. I’ve known her since she was 12yo and she does have mental health challenges. I’ve been through the wringer with on and off depression for decades and it’s tough to make yourself get to the doc and even tougher to follow through on a treatment plan. I think taking care of herself is adult-type thinking she just doesn’t yet possess.
Similar expectations are in place, but my friends just move the goalposts when – predictably – Kate spends her money on clothes and clubbing instead of saving to move. They monitor her bank activity online and absolutely know Kate is playing them (IMHO, this further infantilizes her – mean old mommy and daddy checking the piggy bank).
Sally texted me this morning, there was more screaming last night. Thankfully, no physical assault. She has a therapy appointment tomorrow, I asked what she’ll do if the doc advises that Kate be kicked to the curb, tuite suite (which he’s has before). Sally is in a rumination loop, stuck on the thought that financing Kate’s move would just be rewarding her bad behavior. I told her to think of it as a ransom payment, to be paid only once.
My son was suicidal. His counselor set up rules very quickly so that he could not use suicide as a cudgel against any of us. They worked. Of course no one wants Kate to be suicidal, but it is possible to set up a structure to avoid that AND have her follow rules.
Has Sally explored a contract with Kate? As in they sit down and write out expectations and consequences on both sides, and then sign it. All parties will have to follow it, or it won’t work. No drugs while living at home, for example. Applications for grad school to be turned in by the winter deadlines, reviewed by both parents. Kate can add some of her requests. Kate to contribute money every month to the household from her job and do chores.
Another suggestion for Sally, regarding providing financial help for Kate to move out. Many parents provide financial help to their children at various points in their lives, college, first homes, children, car loans, and it doesn’t mean that they are bribing them or rewarding them. It’s just something parents do if they want to.
Short of time-travel back 10 years, I got nuthin’.
This a million times.
It is possible that kicking Kate out of the house will be the wakeup call she needs to get herself more together. It is also possible that kicking Kate out of the house will end up with a visit to the morgue in 6 months and the lifelong feeling* that you are responsible for your child’s death.
*I want to be very clear that I’m not saying Sally would be to blame; I’m saying that she might feel that way.
If she’s depressed, her behaviour might be driven by that. She might know she should “do something with her life” but just not have the energy to motivate herself to do something. What does her counsellor do with her? Is there any practical help to get herself out of the rut she’s in? Maybe seeing someone new might give her some motivation/hope/incentives?
Has anyone talked to her about what her goals for the future are or what she’d like to do? Grad school doesn’t seem to be on the horizon, but getting her to do something (art classes? short course in something she’s interested in?) might be a way to moving her towards doing that. How about the other siblings? Have they got any ideas?
Maybe a bit of “nosey interference” might be in order to try to help her?
Not that you’re wrong about Sally’s kid, but be aware that if she’s lived there for years then legally she is a tenant and just changing the locks on her might put her parents in legal jeopardy. They might have to get a full eviction. The timeline probably changes if the parents press charges for the assault or get a protection order.
I’m not sure if Sally is in Canada or the US but before taking drastic measures, your friends should check up on local tenant eviction procedures. It varies drastically from place to place. It’s more complicated than just changing the locks, is all I’m saying.
I bet Kate doesn’t know that and wouldn’t follow it up if she did.
In situations like this, the parents need counseling as much as the disturbed individual who is causing the problems, and one of the big reasons is that, blinded by love or a sense of duty or a sense of guilt or whatever, they cannot see the difference between “helping” (a good thing) and “enabling” (a very bad thing).
Your best friend, though her intentions are born out of love, is an “enabler”. By tolerating everything this Kate has done and continues to do without imposing consequences, she is “enabling” Kate to continue doing all the things that she wants her to stop doing. Ironic, is it not? Nothing - and I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - is going to change until Sally stops “enabling”.