To be clear, I didn’t mean “because they can” as in “out of spite” or “for the heck of it”.
I meant that they have options that they might not have in other, more hard core situations, where the underlying problems might be related to the parent(s) being alcoholics or on drugs with abusive spouses/SOs and so on, and if you’re not willing to give the kids to permanent foster care, there’s not much left that’s going to change based on anything that CPS can order up. With middle class parents you can put up your hoops and make those parents jump, so you do it.
But then again, I don’t run in a circle where it’s common for people to be familiar with social service interventions.
There’s a woman on another board who says she’s divorced from a police officer, the father of her two children, and she claims that he calls CPS on her every time he has visitation (she HAS to let him see them or she could potentially be arrested herself) and has kidnapped the children and also has his colleagues stalk her. I find her story a bit hard to believe, because while I realize cops can get away with a lot, they can’t get away with everything. MHO, of course, and because we’re talking about a divorced woman here, nobody can say they don’t believe her.
Only indirectly – CPS was involved in the investigation. Obviously the issue here wasn’t discipline per se, but the ambit of the thread seems to include overreaction on the part of CPS.
My parents used to say: “Don’t like it? Call the Kindertelefoon [children’s hotline of Dutch CPS], here’s the number.” So they certainly weren’t worried.
In the children’s home where I worked in Brazil we weren’t supposed to get children for emergency placement, but because there weren’t enough beds we often did. I never heard of children being placed out of the home for a bad reason. I’m sure in the history of time it has happened, but I never heard of it. Sometimes it’s just for the best if the kids are out of the home for a short time while things get sorted out. Often parents were relieved, although they did want them back.
One of my daughters went through a period in 8th grade when she challenged all authority, both parental and school. She would constantly threaten to call DYFS (as CPS is colloquially known around here) but needed the number. For a while we ignored it, but finally I looked up the number and gave it to her, explained to her what would happen if she called - specifically that DYFS would come around and do some interviews, interview the school as well and possibly the neighbors too, possibly give us some unwanted advice, and that would be the end of it - we would find it embarressing and unpleasant but that’s about it. She never called (that I know of, anyway) and stopped bringing it up.
But I was pretty confident that she was not going to make anything up. She was just going to tell them what she thought, that we were being abusive by not letting her do X, Y, & Z, which she thought she should be free to do. Or by banning her from doing X as a consequence for her doing Y. And so on. If I seriously thought she might make up some actual abuse stories, I would not have been so sanguine. (Probably would have done the same thing anyway, regardless.)
I noticed some interesting parallels between people worrying about getting CPS called on them and people worried about false rape accusations.
Both of which represent a fear that is much less common than the alternative (kids getting abused and people doing nothing, people getting raped and nobody taking them seriously) and a lot of hand-wringing about protecting oneself from accusations that are flat-out lies.
When I asked my wife about people getting railroaded by bogus CPS reports, she mentioned that when CPS is investigating what ends up being actual abuse, the adults involved are often quick to say that they were harassed over lies/someone is making stuff up over retaliation/my kid is making stuff up becuase we told him he couldn’t play video games before homework was done, etc. They will jump to their friends, messageboards, the media and tell their side of the story. Of course CPS isn’t telling their side of the story because all the information is confidential, and no social worker that values their job is going to utter a peep to the media on whats going on. So you hear a very one-sided story every time, which makes it very hard to be objective about what really happened.
My wife also has taught seminars to parents on appropriate physical discipline, and what will and will not get your kids taken away due to child abuse. Many of the parents there were anxious their kid was going to snitch them out to CPS for merely swatting them on the butt lightly, and my wife helped define the kind of discipline a parent is permitted to mete out to their kids.
This seems like a meaningless comparison from the perspective of the individuals involved.
A person who does not intend on raping anyone or abusing their child is obviously facing a much higher chance of being falsely accused of one of these activities than of being guilty of them.
What you’re saying has some relevance from a broader public policy perspective. But from the perspective of someone contemplating the specific possiblity of a false accusation against them personally, the notion that they should balance this against the possibility that some other people out there might be guilty of these things is ridiculous.
I don’t know. I can tell you that my family has been involved with ACS (New York City’s equivalent of CPS), and that we experienced distinct class and racial hostility from one group of social workers we encountered.
We were involved as prospective foster parents, not as parents being investigated, and this was one particular group of social workers and administrators. This group was ***far ***outnumbered by others who were absolutely wonderful people who cared deeply about the children they served, but it was noticeable. I want to emphasize that it was just one small group (they all worked in the same office), not a system-wide thing.
(Also, is there an Ask the thread for fostering? I’d like to do that one day when I’m making actual money and can afford a house with a spare bedroom.)
When I worked in a shelter in NYC, CPS/ACS/acronym of the day was called for a child with his mom’s bite mark clearly on his back. And it wasn’t the first time they were called. If it happened a third time, they would take the child. Yikes.
Due to size and population alone, there are going to be examples of CPS (or police, prosecutors, etc.) destroying innocent people out of incompetence, malevolence, misunderstanding, or bureaucratic inertia. I’ve not ever done anything that will require CPS’ intervention, nor do I plan on ever doing anything. Therefore if CPS ever does contact me (about my own family) it is a false accusation or a misunderstanding, and could potentially slip into that kind of life destroying mess.
I’m worried about false accusations, because I’m not worried about real accusations. This is my same attitude for fearing talking with the police (polite conversations and such aside). I’ve not done anything wrong, so if they’re asking me accusing questions, they’re very confused, and I have no idea how deep the confusion goes.
As a middle-class, white, male I’m not paranoid of these kinds of things happening, but I do think they are legitimate (if unlikely for me) worries. Anytime there’s a situation in which one group (CPS, police, IRS, etc.) has much more power than another group (me, for example) then the possibility exists for the group with more power to abuse the group with less power.
No, I don’t think I can elaborate much on a public message board.
I can say that, in my experience, some social workers who are employed by New York’s ACS, or by organizations that have contracts from ACS, are deeply opposed to transracial fostering and/or adoption, and some social workers see people of European descent who have careers that pay more than social work, who are not poor, as out to snatch the children of the poor and non-white.
Did she add that, when CPS is investigating what ends up not being actual abuse, the adults involved are often quick to say the exact same things about lies and/or stuff being made up? Since, in such cases, the adults would of course be telling the truth?
I keep seeing this thread and I need to make a point.
Disciple != hitting.
Discipline is setting rules and boundaries, establishing penalties for violations, and then carrying things through. The point of discipline is NOT punishment, it is to establish and maintain order.
I’m not going to sat that spanking or hitting people is always wrong, because I know better. I also know what I’m talking about vis children, as I was abused as a child* and I don’t advocate anything like that.
What I am saying is that I object to the idea that “discipline” always means hitting.
One of the worst things some former friends ever did to me was to jump in my face screaming about how they wouldn’t hit their children when I suggested that they needed to discipline their children and their dogs, who were (respectively) hitting, biting and scratching ME on a regular basis. When I tried to explain that I did NOT mean ‘hit’, they became almost frenzied in (quite literally) screaming louder that they were certain I did mean ‘hit’ and I should never speak to them again about their children and their dogs (got your wish there, Dina).
So while it isn’t precisely on-topic for the direction this thread is going, the point was made in the OP about discipline and while I may have missed it, I don’t think anyone ever disputed the idea that discipline translates as abuse.
If the question in the OP can be restated with the following qualifications: Are there reasonable, well meaning, thoughtful and reasonably intelligent parents (e.g. not stupid) who refuse to set limits on their children because they are afraid of CPS? then probably.
The population of the US is over 300 million. There’s got to be a few paranoid people who worry about such things.
