Cite? I think we tend to treat all the states fairly, including Canada.
I don’t know how Canadians in general feel - I figure there are probably larege groups who think we’re better off than we are or who are disappointed and feel we’re walking a risky line freeloading of the United States.
Here’s my personal take. Keep in mind two things:
- This is just an opinion, a description of my impression, as requested. If somebody can pull up a mess of facts to show why I’m wrong, well, then I’m wrong, and I’m sure those facts will affect my opinion.
- I am, in fact, in the Canadian Forces. But in the super-super-reserve component. (The way my boss put it, I’ll be called up for combat service ‘when the asteroid hits’.)
Right now, Canada’s got about the same size military as Belgium. Its funding has been irregular and probably inadequate, but its role has been poorly-defined. But do I feel we’ve been mooching off the US? Not really. Despite the Americans’ gigantic sword, I don’t feel like they’ve been using it to slay anybody that’s been coming to attack us. Nobody wants to attack Canada; few conventional militaries would be capable of it, anyway. (We’re oceans away from everything and too big to easily conquer by invasion.) We:
- Aren’t quite capable of backign up our territirial claims in the arctic, but the Yanks haven’t been carrying our weight on that one.
- Contributed in a meaningful way to the operations in Afghanistan over the last four years, though it stretched the forces to their limits to do so.
- Still have troops on UN missions here and there, and I don’t get the impression the Americans are putting extra resources into that because we haven’t been pulling our weight.
- Are meeting our NATO commitments without leaning on the US, as far as I know.
- Are participating fully in NORAD - I haven’t seen anything to suggest we haven’t been keeping up our end of that agreement.
- Seem to be able to take care of illegally-fishing trawlers and oil-dumping cargo ships in our waters zonder American assistance
- Appear to be able to enforce airspace security for North America in on our own and in co-operation with the US, and again nothing indicates to me that Canada isn’t doing it’s job here.
The one role that sticks out where Canada may be sometimes using the US military to do our own work is in transport. We just don’t have the ability to get our military to where it needs to go, so we overtax our Hercules aircraft, lease those Antonovs from that Ukrainian company, and ask the Americans to haul stuff around for us. We need our own ships and cargo planes, and it may e reasonable to argue that we’re mooching off the US in that respect.
Otherwise, though, just because my neighbor has a minibus and a mansion and I have a bicycle and a bungalow doesn’t mean I’m “Not pulling my own weight” in the housing department. Even though I’m his neighbor, my own needs may be very well served by what I’ve got… except that I keep asking for his help to move heavy things across town.
Is that a joke? Cause it’s not a particularly funny one.
Its only not funny if you insist on being deadly serious.
I wasn’t, actually, thinking mooching. It just occured to me that, “You know, the guy next door has a shitload of guns, likes to shoot them off, and doesn’t always aim that well.” I was wondering if there was any resentment and/or vauge worry about the US as an ‘enemy’. I feel glad that your first impression was ‘mooching’, because, well, in my opinion, that means we’re family. As far as these things go. As opposed to, say, England and France, who certainly would feel differently in our respective places. I know a number of people who, in a somewhat jesting, somewhat serious manner, are still of the ‘allies with Germany against the French’ types.
Concur. The most unfunny, overused joke to which I’m continually exposed.
Aboot?
Bryan Adams?
Eh?
Hockey?
Igloos?
Most unfunny? Overused?
I think not.
Take it easy, from a southerner who used to piss and moan about the :gasp: stereotyping and the :eek: “redneck” comments. Just simmer down. Hoser.
I was going to say, calling Canada the 51st State is about as funny as calling someone from south of the Mason Dixon line a Yankee. It’s just poking a sore spot, ya know?
I gotta say, all my life I had never heard this “aboot” joke or comment or whatever until I heard an American say something about it, and even then I didn’t get it. Where do we say “aboot”? What part of the country has that accent? I’m honestly curious here.
As for Cellucci, he’s a tool, and the reason he pisses people up here off, as has been noted, is because he comes across as though he’s scolding Canada for not doing what we’re told. His statements seem more like a teacher telling a student to behave than an ambassador tactfully responding to the press.
Yeah, that’s more or less it. The US admin is positioning it as “protecting Canada from the threat of ICBMs” or whatever, but frankly, considering their success rate, to me it says “American warhead has a wardrobe malfunction and drops in downtown Yellowknife,” with a soupçon of “hasn’t quite tumbled to the fact that we get to have our own policy on the subject, and it’s frustrating them.”
It’s called Canadian raising and is found across the country (and in parts of the Northern US.) We don’t say “aboot,” of course (the strongest instances of this accent are in Nova Scotia, and really only go as far as “aboat.”)
Basically what it is, is that low diphthongs such as “ow” (low vowel = wide open mouth) get “raised” to something resembling “uhw” before a voiceless consonant like “t”. The first part of the dipththong, which can be /a/ as in father or even /æ/ as in pat, is raised to the vicinity of /V/ as in but.
What I imagine ends up happening next is that Americans without Canadian raising, used to a low vowel in that context, hear our higher vowel as contrastingly much higher than it actually is - “aboot.”
Canadian raising happens in other contexts too: notice that the vowels in the first syllable of “writer” and “rider” are the same in many American lects, but different in Canadian English, since the i in writer is raised before the t. (Interestingly, both the t and the d then get transformed into a “flap,” leaving the vowels, not the consonants, as the distinction between the two words.)
I do. And FTR, I am simmered down.
Stereotypes are one thing, and for the most part, they don’t bother me. Many (if not all) are based on reality from one time or another.
It’s the complete and utter dismissal of my national identity that cheeses me off:
“Oh, you’re American?”
“No, Canadian.”
“Same thing.”
Stereotypes imply that the “joker” knows something about one’s background, personality or nationality and can get a quick chuckle out of the comparison. Jokes about “the 51st State,” “America Lite,” blah blah blah do nothing but imply that the “joker” knows nothing about Canada, and can’t be bothered even trying to come up with something original, or even be bothered trying to figure out the difference between the U.S. and Canada. It’s dismissive and insulting.
Excellent post Matt. The last bit reminds me, I work with a guy near Montreal and I have to stiffle my laughter anytime he mentions his mudder or fahder. How does American “th” translate to Canadian “d”. Same thing going on as the “writer/rider” example you’ve given?
That may be a French-Canadian thing. Anglos I know pronounce th’s normally.
Maybe I misread your post as suggestive of mooching because it’s a common charge agianst Canada (both by Canadians and Americans) that we’re “freeloading” off the massive might of the US military.
I think there exist groups who feel that there is a sort of familial bond between the two countries - that you’re our ‘closest friends and allies’. There are also those who, though they like you, want to be sure to be recognized as distinct from you, sometimes mostly for the reason one likes not to be too closely identified with one’s older brother. There’s probably some who know we’ve got a treasure trove of natural resources and no way to defend them, while Iraq was supposed to have WMD’s to defend its oil.
My personal feelings (again with the disclaimers I listed above) (Post-writing note: this turned out a lot longer than I expect, but I think it stayed mostly on topic. I’ll post it anyway):
I grew up thinking Americans were a lot like us… just different. Like, we were different flavours of ice cream, but both ice cream. You’re the vanilla, we’re the maple ripple. The American people share a lot of the same fundamental values, and thus our governments, though having some differences, often come to the same sorts of positions. We have value of our own, but we often stand beside you, because we often believe very similarly on important matters of what’s right. In the schoolyard of the international community of nations, Canada and the US play together, and stick up for each other.
Nowadays, though, I look at the US a little differently. I don’t trust the US government as much anymore. September 11th was like watching your old childhood friend get his nose bloodied by thugs because since your playground days he’s been acting like a good guy while hiding from his parents that he’s been trying drugs. It hurt to see it happen, and we brought you some ice for it and helped you home (That is, accepted all those airliners and their passengers that were headed for the US, and sent troops to Afghanistan, even commanding that mission for a time). But deep down, we knew that getting involved with those no-goodniks was bad for your character, bad for your health, and likely to eventually lead to you getting in trouble.
Loyalty to old friends dies hard, though - and it’s not the American people after all, it’s just the government. The American people are still, at the core, the kid we used to know and love. Even if, on the outside, the government pulls hurtful protectionist measures against us (cattle imports, softwood lumber, that west-coast fishing thing), or tries to push us around a bit (Ambassador Celluci).
Or is it just the government? Canada seems to be taking a different track on a lot of issues these days… the parliament looks set to pass gay marriage legislation, while the American people came out in droves to amend their state constitutions to prevent that. Ally or no, we couldn’t go along with the Iraq war. And all that ‘speaking french is for traitors’ stuff? That cuts deep, America. Rohinton Mistry’s book tour? Maher Arar? WTH, America? WTH? He was one of us.
That’s kind of how I feel, and even though I use ‘we’, a couple of times, I can’t speak for everyone. I don’t think I’m alone in some of those sentiments, though.
Do I think the US will try to attack us? My reaction used to be “No, of course not. We’re buddies!” Now, it’s more like “No, no way. I mean, we’re allies. Well, at least not anytime soon.” I wonder about a day when America has used up all its oil, and can’t get what it wants overseas for whatever reason, and looks northward. Or for other resources. To me, it’s decades away, and when it happens, it’ll probably have a lot more to do with political pressure than military.
In short, I’m jittery, because the “They won’t attack and ally” thing only works as long as the peoples feel like neighbors and the governments don’t disagree strongly. I’m looking to Europe and Asia for new trading partners in case relations with the Yanks go sour (or in case your economy tanks afer a few years of trillion-dollar deficits), and I’m looking to the EU to help counter unrestrained US power in case that’s necessary. I’ve done the “What if American tanks were rolling down Rideau street” thought experiment, and I’ve gone a little out of my way to avoid changing planes in Washington on the way to Brussels. And I’m wondering if America is the same kid I used to know.
I think the problem with signing on for the missile defence is manifold.
Firstly, there is a probably realistic view that Canada is not likely to be a target. NORAD was good for Canada because when the Russkies were coming over the pole with thousands of bombers/missiles, there was a pretty good chance that they were going to drop a few on Canada in passing. But in the current situation, if Bin Laden or North Korea decides to fire off the one or three missles they have managed to build or steal, Canada’s going to be pretty far down the target list.
Secondly, there is a feeling that all the US wants is access to our wallet and free use of our airspace for testing, and that we’re not really going to have much say in what happens. Especially that if it comes to a choice of knocking a missile down over Canada rather than over the US, Canada will lose every time. Perhaps this is not true, but if so, no-one in the US is trying much to convince us otherwise.
Thirdly, there is the strong doubts that the program is actually feasible and fear that this may end up going nowhere, like the SDI initiative, and we will have wasted a lot of money which we can ill afford and have no viable missile defence to show for it, and not even get much economic benefit out the money spent on it due to Buy American policies.
Finally, there is the whole public backlash against what is seen as US bullying in other areas. It’s hard to feel neighbourly and accomodating about missile defence when you’ve just been given the finger for the third or fourth time over softwood lumber.
On the military side, I agree with wolfstu about the shortcomings of our military, but point out that the shortcomings mostly affect the things which we have been doing to help others out, whether as UN peacekeepers or to free up US troops in Afghanistan, rather than compromising national defence. Realistically, with the fall of the USSR our main threat to national sovereignty is now the US, as our location and geography is a pretty good defence against most traditional military threats. The main threat to our sovereignty in the Arctic is US refusal to recognize it. And, as for our dead-eye tankers, this is a moot point as the government has decided to get rid of all the tanks.
Should be easy to narrow down the likely suspects. Get yourself a list of the biggest individual contributors to Bush’s campaign and see who has yet to be hired by the his administration.
What “Backlash”? Relations between the two countries barely changed. The average American on the street didn’t much care either way; they’re smart enough to know the “Coalition of the Willing” is most token support. Don’t let the nuts on this board make you think there was some common “Backlash.”
I travel to the US on business a lot. Last year I visited some fifty cities 27 different states. The total number of negative comments I got about being Canadian were zero. The total number of people who seemed miffed that we were not in Iraq; Zero. The total number of people who gave me a nasty look or a cold shoulder after learning I was Canadian (a fact I hide from nobody) - zero. I got a hell of a lot of very friendly comments, though, and very interested questions. Whenever someone asked me how we hold elections in Canada (since the election was on last year it was an obvious question) I always had a fascinated audience, asking detailed followup questions.
So what was this backlash, hmm? The U.S. GOVERNMENT didn’t like it? Well, of course they didn’t, that’s their job. They didn’t bomb Canada, didn’t close the border, didn’t boycott sporting events, didn’t do anything substantive. As has been pointed out in other threads, the old saw that the U.S. is nicer to Canada in trade and such when Canada does the U.S’s bidding is simply not supported by objective evidence.
And guess what? There will be no backlash from missile defence. The National Post, Sam Stone, and varied others will claim than anything that doesn’t go our way in the next year is due to this decision. But truth is, relations between the two countries will remain pretty much the same.
The vast majority of Americans simply do not give a flying fuck, which is exactly the correct attitude for them to take; they make their decisions, we make ours. The people who were the most concerned about this issue were Canadians, the Bush administration, and Bush’s more vitriolic fans.
Wait a second; a moment ago you’re complaining that there was a backlash, and that hurts your feelings. Now you say they don’t care, but THAT hurts your feelings. Maybe you should stop worrying what right wing fruitcakes on Internet messages boards from other countries think about us.
Why it is that the Canadians who are most upset about being confused with Americans seem to be the most obsessed with what Americans think of us?
Given this he should feel right at home with the rest of the politicians in Ottawa.
Well, being from Alberta, we sell oil to the US and there is no reason for them to invade us as long as we do that, which we will continue to do so long as we have it to sell. The only people we’ve ever worried over trying to steal our resources come from the east, not the south.
I’ve been of the opinion that if this is a real worry that Canadians have then a simple solution offers itself, “If you can’t beat them, join them”. No reason to invade yourself, afterall. Better to do it before tanks line up across the border, don’t you think? If you truly think this will happen, of course. :dubious: