Okay, this is not a debate on the acceptability of the practice. I suspect everybody but a troll is going to post yeah, it’s evil, and have comments on what should happen to pedophiles that ought to be in the Pit.
I bring it up for these reasons:
It seems to me that it’s much more prevalent than the general public realizes. When I was working with troubled teenagers, I would estimate that about 30% of them were molested as kids. (The fact that they were troubled probably skews that figure from the national norm, but I think the number by itself says a lot.)
A recent Skeptical Inquirer reported on a Congressional resolution condemning a psychological paper that encapsulated other studies on the effects, the net finding of which IIRC was that a substantial minority (something like 40%) of
children who had been molested did not suffer significant trauma from it. (I no longer have that issue, or would post the cites. David or other subscriber, would you please give more background?)
I’d wager that there is a fair range of views on what ought to be done to prevent it, on what can be done to “cure” pedophiles, and how best to help the victims of molestation.
I recall Matt_mcl making the observation in a thread some months ago that there needs to be a distinction between those attracted to prepubescent children and those attracted to teenagers, reporting his first sexual encounter – with a substantially older man – as a fairly positive event.
I know two regular posters who have spoken to the emotional scarring they have felt from childhood molestation.
It’s an issue that I feel needs to be dealt with, and hopefully resolved. Let’s see what we can do with it.
And I agree with Matt on this one. It seems unfair for the various States’ laws to group adults who have sex with 15-year-olds in the same category as adults who have sex with 7-year-olds.
A while ago, on alt.sex.intergen (which has since become a NAMBLA hang-out, unfortunately), someone coined the term “ephebophile” to mean someone sexually attracted to teen-agers, as distinct from a pedophile who is someone attracted to pre-pubescent children. “Ephebus” was the ancient Hellenic Greek term for a boy who’d reached legal adult age (13+) but who was not yet old enough to be an Athenian Citizen and vote (21). While “ephebophile” might be too much of a mouthful for us English speakers, I agree that “pedophile” has a negative loading undeserved by someone who is only attracted to people in their teens or older.
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.
This is tough Poly, it is not easy to identify a pedophile until they have already done some damage. Then it will not usually be found out right away.
What is a cure? Are they cured if they never do it again? Then we can never know they are cured only that for all we know they have not repeated the offense.
What does a pedophile look like? How do they act? Sure there are psychological profiles, but all do not fit into these profiles.
I am not saying that nothing should be done, on the contrary. Nothing makes me madder than someone who would hurt a child. I would like to know what others think as well.
How do we stop them? Be alert to the activities of your child and other children. If something seems amiss, isn’t it worth doing something when a child’s life is at stake.
I can’t say how a different past would have affected me.
I agree there is a distinction between having sex or sexual activities with a 7- year-old as opposed to a 15-year-old. I would also like to see a thread started just for the purpose of determining the views on whether it could be possible that sexual acts against children have increased simply because they are more accessible.
You guys think it is alright for someone to have sex with a 15 year old?
Are you serious?
Have you seen a 15 year old recently?
There is an age where it is ok. Different states have different ages.
18 is where all bets are off and anyone can consent to do anything with anyone else. I don’t know all the ins and outs of the various age of consent laws across the country, but any adult who wants to have sex with a 15 year old needs to check themselves. If they can’t, they are really screwed up.
Some thoughts from my SO, who is a psychologist specializing in trauma, sexuality, and by extension, sexual trauma:
Only about 5% of children sexually abused grow up to be abusers, while nearly 100% of abusers were themselves abused. When these guys (and gals) go to prison, they are considered the lowest form of scum, and suffer terrible humiliating rapes. A double whammy.
And they go into prison pedophiles, but come out violent and angry pedophiles. Something is seriously wrong with that.
Can pedophiles be cured? They common wisdom is that they can’t, but that’s simply not true. There was a treatment center in Vermont. The treatment was essentially therapy, where the offenders were made to confront their own childhood traumas. The center boasted an extremely low recidivism rate. However, it was shut down, because guards were traumatized by listening to the stories.
So we’re back to treating these people in the least appropriate way.
Poly, I also read that article in Skeptical Inquirer but, of course, I don’t have it handy at the moment. Here are a couple links to other articles about that study, though. Maybe these will help.
The first one is from the Junkscience website and the second is a statement from the APA.
Okay… i am a victim of sexual abuse. i was very young when it started happening but i have done a lot of research on the topic. if you visit my website ( http://www.geocities.com/allikat433/SexAbuse_Project.html ).
it has some typos but i’m sure you can get the gist of it. it was my senior paper and contains quite a bit of information on the predators as well as the victims. it is my understanding that the number of reported cases each year becomes less and less but a large part of this is attributed to children being “shut up”…
If there are any questions on a personal basis that i can answer, please email me and i’ll be glad to answer them.
No Freedom I don’t think it’s ok to have sex with a 15-year-old. I did not make myself clear in my previous post. But there are some 15-year-olds that can dress and put on makeup and look like a 20-year-old. There are not many 7 year olds that can do that. That was what I meant when you sometimes can’t treat cases the same. Even if you have a consenting 15 year old and she looks 20 that doesn’t make it right. But who is gonna check ids?
Are you sure about this? Not to call you a liar, but this seems illogical to me. Awareness of this issue is on the rise. It would seem to me that fewer would be offenders are likely to become actual offenders, and that there are more resources than ever for kids to turn to.
I’d like to add my observations to this thread, based on reading and this thread as well.
No. I think the psychology of being continuously raped while in a prison, makes you more of a predator on exit. Think about it. You are abused and mistreated by those around you, you are the worst of them, you are above no one. When you exit a prison you will first and foremost be out to correct the pecking order. Someone must be below you, someone you can abuse. They turn to children yet again, since they are smaller and weaker, but this time they are angry and violent.
Kind of like the abusive family tree. A husband abuses a wife, a wife abuses a child, the child kicks the dog or turn to hurting small animals. Seniors are above and pick on Juniors…etc. See the similarities. The pecking order of a prison though, destroys and makes angry the person at the bottom.
Perhaps they should never be released. Permanent work colonies? Allowed to re-enter society only as long as no women and children are around?? Now the dilemma is reached, what to do with the “unfixable”.
Oh well, leave em in there.
I think Alli is correct to some extent, only that well of families and families in general are attempting to hide EVERYTHING these days, lest it get out and hurt them somehow. Its the kind of pattern that will keep the problem from being solved.
I agree with what you say 99%. You say pedophiles can’t be cured. They can, but not in the current prison system, as you correctly assert. They are not completely lost causes, as the Vermont system showed.
Is keeping them in prison forever the answer? I don’t think so. Remember that pedophiles are most likely victims, too. Proper treatment of them shouldn’t include a lifetime of further sexual abuse. Some people think of these guys as complete monsters, but that’s over simplifying the facts.
Stopping prison rape would be best solution to this. Unfortunately, an overly punitive and conservative justice system wouldn’t eagerly jump at this idea.
But as all crime will continue, there is no way of doing anything that will totally stop this.
Whether you can cure them or not is sort of a side issue. I have no problem locking them up forever or even the death penalty. Protecting children is more important in my opinion. But how can you stop it? All you can really do is try to be more aware of your child’s activities and not let them do things that put them in danger. Also, try to get pedophiles out of places that give them access to children and do not put them in such places in the future (i.e. schools, churches, etc.)
No pedophile is going to be “cured” in prison. Prison (ostensibly) is for punishment, or for the really hard cases, a warehouse. I don’t think the prisons should be indicted [/pun] for not curing anyone. If you truly believe that a pedophile can be cured, then you should work to change the laws to commit them to an appropriate mental institution. Of course this will not be popular with the victims’ families, who are usually more interested in punishment than rehabilitation.
OTOH how do you classify it as a sickness? I personally think it’s sick. But a sickness? Well, I don’t know. We use to think homosexuality was a sickness, but now we debate whether it is a choice or not. In 30 years will we consider pedophilia a sexual preference? I hope not.
Well whether it is a sickness or not, one of the things that is supposed to separate humans from animals is the ability to control our actions. I may really want to do the nasty with some hot babe; but if I don’t suppress those urges when she says no, I’m in trouble. Don’t marginalize this as a fantastic analogy. We have laws. If your particular predilection is in conflict with them, then work to change the laws, or don’t indulge your passion. It is incumbent upon the individual to seek help if s/he thinks that they may have a problem controlling themselves before they break the law. After the fact, I have little sympathy. If they are too mentally ill to be aware of that before hand, then they should be committed. But if it is simply a matter of self-control, then off to prison.
I’m not sure that “sickness” is the right word. But the fact that 100% of offenders were themselves molested can’t be ignored. This goes well beyond your “I like Cindy Loo, but I need to control my instincts” analogy. I think it goes deeper than that. I’m no shrink (but I date one), so I won’t even pretend to understand this fully, but there are some powerful dynamics going on here.
I am certainly not condoning coddling of those that abuse children, but by trying to unserstand them may help to stem the tide a bit. One would hope, anyway.
I do not think it is 100% of the abusers were themselves abused though I am sure the number is quite high.
What about people that are on drugs and are not totally cognizant of their actions? Not that I am condoning it. I am asking about any data for this type of abuser.
I am also not really clear on what constitutes abuse. I guess any sexual action from a non-minor with a minor is considered abuse.
“Abuse” is an awfully strong word to use if the minor is, say, 17 years old and a consenting partner. It may not be socially acceptible behavior. It may not be legal. It may, even, have negative consequences for the 17-year-old, But it should hardly rank as “abuse” alongside sex with an 8-year-old.