The problem here even sven is that it is not so simple as a binary racist yes or no.
Let us accept for the sake of discussion that this was not just random and that race played a factor. (Something that we really could only know with a much larger dataset.) I’m not so sure the people involved are rationalizing at all. If it is, as your previous post suggests, operating at that implicit level there is no explicit racist thought for them to rationalize away. It plays out as a gut reaction that they are not pegging on race at all. It’s more insidious than that and calling it out to the individual whose action is having racist outcomes is not likely to be very productive.
Not that racism doesn’t exist (it does) and not that it’s easy to dismiss something when you weren’t there (it is), but I think a large problem of the problem of confronting racism is faux racism outrage an unscrupulous person of color uses when they don’t get their way. Now, there is clearly a difference between “No, I can’t sell you this item because your card was declined, it has nothing to do with your race” and “Ohhh, looks like our card machine is down, too bad. No, I’m not going to check it, guess you better leave”. The issue is that the first certainly happens, and is certainly exasperating. It’s doubly bad because it makes claims of actual racism conflate with claims of “it’s racist because I didn’t get my way”.
But if you know the person is not “unscrupulous” and not given to blowing things out of proportion, why not give them the benefit of the doubt and at least express sympathy?
I’m betting many an interracial relationship has soured because one friend makes the mistake of ranting about a situation that pings their “racist!” meter only to have the other friend argue with them that their perception is wrong, wrong, WRONG. When all the latter has to do is say, “Man, that fucking sucks! I’m pissed off for you! Let’s go drown our sorrows in some ice cream.” You know, just act like a kind human being instead of a blowhard condescending jerk.
Speaking only for myself, I know that I’ve learned not to talk about certain subjects with white people. If there’s anything more frustrating than dealing with racism, it’s having people argue with you over racism. Hell, even when something is clearly racist, people will find a way to rationalize and obfuscate and downplay. If an interaction rubs me the wrong way in a racial sense, I usually go to another black person to get sympathy. They may not agree with my perception, but at least they probably aren’t going to argue with me.
I barely remember that thread but geez, you posted to GD you and expected sympathy?
FWIW I have not changed my POV much since then and I do not know if you have. Pertinent to this thread I still see the need to have the vocabulary that differentiates the monkey head doll racist (someone who would endorse explicit racist beliefs, a minority nowadays IMHO) and the person who was afraid that they might be discriminated against “in payback,” and the person who believes they are progressive, would be appalled at the use hurtful words, endorses a progressive agenda, worked for Obama’s election and re-election, but nevertheless has behaviors based on implicit beliefs that have racist impacts in aggregate despite themselves.
The solution for the explicit racist is to continue to marginalize them and continue to have Black men and women in prominent positions of power who are doing plain and simple good work for all of us. Hateful statements do need to be called out and not tolerated. I disagree strongly with Reply here - minimally mocking someone who would make such a statement in all venues is appropriate; engaging them is not. The second could be reasoned with, and calling her “racist” would likely only cause defensiveness. I suspect that by now she has stepped back from her unreasonable fears. Unlike the explicit racist she likely was reachable by real world experience that contradicted what she was afraid of. But endemic implicit racism is a different beast that requires different approaches, beginning with getting us to admit that despite our best intentions we all, of all colors, are part of that problem. IMHO.
Rereading that thread just now has brought up some bad feelings, and this comment isn’t helping. I didn’t expect sympathy. I expected a thoughtful discussion. So I was incredibly disappointed when I couldn’t get one. But no, I didn’t want a drop of sympathy. I wasn’t the one being discussed in that thread.
No, my position hasn’t changed an iota. Nothing has changed since 2008 that should cause anyone to believe that racism is now a rare, insignificant phenomenon. We’re actually living in an even more racially tense world, according to the latest current events.
And as then, I am sorry to have been the cause of any bad feelings. Really I thought that thread and this one had some thoughtful discussion even if my thoughts and yours were not in agreement. And in truth I don’t see where we disagree all that much. I just place greater weight on the subconscious baggage part of the equation as the bigger current issue and believe that doing something about that racism requires a different set of tactics than attacking explicit racism.
And I don’t see subconscious and conscious racism as being as two distinct, non-overlapping, independent things. I also think the former can be just as scary as the latter–if not scarier.
I’m sure that prior to Nov. 23, 2012, Michael Dunn was the “subconscious” type of racist. He seems like the type who’d have a best “black” friend. The type of guy who was probably raised to never say “nigger” and might even admit to thinking Halle Berry would be a seriously good lay.
If most Americans have just a fraction of the subconscious racism that Michael Dunn harbors, then all of us should be concerned. Not because most of us will ever be in the position where we could kill a kid, but because we serve in juries. We elect the people who create bad laws and execute them in even worse ways. We all raise and teach and influence children. The old lady who is afraid the coloreds will riot if a black man becomes president is the grandmother of a child that grows up to be the guy that shoots a hundred bullets into a car because he thinks all black teens are thugs.
Drawing a line between the subconscious and conscious racist is interesting and quite relevant to this thread. But when the question is about whether racism is pervasive in our society, playing around with labels is just an intellectual distraction–and quite the annoying one, at that. Because the subconscious and conscious racist have the same potential for harm. They suffer from the same disease. They may require different treatments, true, but the question I posed wasn’t about how to “fix” racism. It was just getting us to recognize there is still a problem to fix. And it didn’t seem like we were in agreement about that…but perhaps it’s because I felt like you were too busy discussing terminology instead of answering the question in the OP like I continually asked you to do.
Meh. he was the type who wrote “The more time I am exposed to these people, the more prejudiced against them I become” … not so subconscious to my read.
As to that old thread, sorry but I would still maintain that lumping it all together and labeling, well petty much everyone as “racist”, with no real distinctions, is simplistic and counterproductive. I offered a link earlier and still agree with what it said:
Labeling pretty much everyone as racist, essentially saying all of you are morally flawed, prevents actual meaningful discussion, IMHO. “Racist” is a word with a lot of emotional baggage of its own.
And yes in a GD thread trying to make the point that there is racism and there is racism and that the op’s presenting the question as a binary issue and only wanting agreements of “Yes, there is racism still!” or stupid denials claiming that there is no significant issue was a silly use of the fallacy of the excluded middle that made real discussion of the nature of the problem difficult. I understand wanting to rant about the persistence of racism in any form. Honestly though ranting is what the Pit is for. In GD you are going to have people challenge your premise and try to refine the discussion. You may even have some people wanting to move the discussion into a more productive space, a space that allows for people to consider how what they do (what I likely do even as I attempt to be aware of it and to control for it), with no conscious ill intent, may end up have racist impacts.
If you want to reopen that thread so we can actually have a substantive debate about the pervasiveness of racism in America, I’m game. Maybe we can finally talk about the problem that is racism rather than speaking in circles about what is and isn’t racism…which is clearly NOT what I wanted to talk about six years ago and is STILL not what I want to talk about right now.
But I will not debate you in this thread. In this thread, we are in agreement.
Because allowing someone to see racism where there is not reinforces the racism on the part of the perceiver.
If a person of color were to come to me and complain “Oh, the cashier at that store wouldn’t take my coupon, I’m sure it’s because she’s a racist, given how she looked at me and the tone of her voice” and upon seeing the coupon you point out that it’s expired, so it’s probably not racism at all, but just an exasperated store clerk, that is hardly being a jerk. That’s pointing out reality.
And someone people do need to have their prejudice-o-meters recalibrated. If a person of color (or a woman complaining of sexism, or a homosexual complaining of homophobia) ascribes problems in their life to bigotry when it is better explained by the circumstances at hand, or even the attitude of the persons involved, then that bears pointing out. Too many false cries of bigotry hurt the fight against racism as much as racism itself.
Frankly, if an interracial friendship couldn’t handle the minor inconvenience of “are you sure it was racism?”, then I have to question the value of that friendship on the whole. This is not to say someone should put up with a person that denies all racism, but to say that people should be willing to re-evaluate their perceptions when questioned.
Let’s go back to the OP. If your friend was the black guy looking for a place to stay and all his attempts were flopping, what would be your response if the guy points to racism as a possible explanation?
“Dude, come on! You know that’s not it! Don’t go Al Sharpton on me! Don’t play the race card, bro! Don’t make this racial when you have no evidence! Cuz I don’t want to hear it!!”
or
“Man, this is messed up. I admit it does look suspicious, but let’s keep trying. Something’s bound to come up. If the next one is a bust, I’ll buy you a beer.”
If your friend is the hypersensitive “Al Sharpton” all the time, then perhaps the first response is appropriate. (And perhaps ya’ll aren’t meant to be friends anyway).
But if you know your friend doesn’t make everything about race and you’re willing to admit that it’s plausible racism could be involved, then it’s 100% dickish of you to argue with him like he’s an idiot for simply broaching the topic.
If I had a white person reflexively argue with me over something like this, then no, I wouldn’t able to be friends with them. I don’t care how cool they are in all other respects. I deliberately keep racial speculations to a minimum, so on the rare occasion I’d dare speak my mind, I’d really hope my very good friend, the person I trust with matters of the heart, would LISTEN to me. Not intellectualize. Not rationalize. Not jump into defensive mode. Not argue that I’m WRONG WRONG WRONG!! But just listen to me and at least pretend to care.
Reflexively arguing is a great way of showing you don’t care about another person’s experience.
I could rewrite your proposed speeches to make unequivocally accepting that it MUST be racism sound batty too, ya know.
“Well, while it’s possible it’s racism, people do have commitments and forget to update every so often. I wouldn’t overthink it.” vs “OMG you’re right! This place is a hotbed of racism and I never knew! I must away to my blog to defend you and the inhumanity of being denied a couch to sleep on!”
The the blog post linked, the author certainly DID make his friend out to be an Al Sharpton type (“it’s hard to be black”).
Sometimes part of being a friend is listening when the other person is upset, that’s true. But sometimes part of being a friend is pointing out when the other person has gone off the deep end. Both are required. The impression I get from your post is that if you claim racism, that is a deep matter of the heart and It Shall Not Be Questioned. Racism is like many other things - it does happen, but it also gets blamed for things when it’s not there. It’s worth pointing both out. I hope you agree, because you are both intelligent and erudite on this point, but so far I have seen only the former from you.
At what point would it be alright to tell the black friend his concerns aren’t the result of “overthinking?” If he was turned down five times? Ten times? Twenty times? What is your basis for warning him against “overthinking”?
Didn’t you notice that in my sympathetic response above, the hypothetical white guy (you) never downplays the black guy’s concerns while at the same time he doesn’t actually agree with him all the way? He just says it’s “messed up”. And it is messed up to be turned down multiple times in a row, even if there is a perfectly innocent explanation. As long as you can relate somehow to another person’s pain, there won’t be any hurt feelings. Warning someone of overthinking, however, often is hurtful.
I guess I’m an Al Sharpton too because I agree that it is hard to be black. I can produce cite after cite which supports this claim.
Do I go around saying it’s hard to be black all the time? No. Especially around argumentative white people!
If I’m sharing a tale of a “weird” incident to another person, I would never be bold enough to say with absolute certainty that it was racial unless I had good reason to be that confident. I’m more likely to preface a story with a qualfier or two, just to be upfront that I don’t KNOW if what happened to me was racist, but by golly it sure FEELS that way. And if it’s clear that I’m in the mood for a dry intellectual conversation where my perception can be analyzed and dissected, then go ahead and try me. I can handle being challenged. But if I’m clearly still emotionally affected by what happened to me and my speculations are 100% plausible and you know me to be very level-headed and not at all vulnerable to delusions, then I’m probably NOT going to be in the mood to have my concerns dismissed or belittled or waved away by someone who doesn’t have to walk in my shoes and hasn’t seen what I have seen. I don’t expect another person to really fully understand where I’m coming from. But I at least want someone to acknowledge my experience and not reflexively dismiss what I have to say just because what I have to say challenges their view of the world.
By all means challenge Al Sharpton (who I respect, btw). But most black people are not Al Sharpton. Most of us don’t walk around just looking for people to accuse of racism.
Monstro, I hear you. But, IMHO, this is an issue that comes up all the time between friends, or between SOs, not just in racial contexts: When someone is venting, what do I do?
My instinct, when my observation permits it, is nearly always to point out why rationally speaking the problem the other perceives might not be a problem at all (at least not in this case), or is a smaller problem than the venter realizes. You are right that this is not always the most helpful response – just being a shoulder to cry on, without exactly agreeing with the venter’s interpretation of the facts 100%, is the way to go.
But please understand that I’m not trying to be a dismissive jerk when I point out the perceived problem may not exist. I’m trying to be genuinely helpful! To me, nothing could be better than finding out a feared problem doesn’t exist – it’s like being told by the doctor it’s NOT tuberculosis, just a mild flu!
Still, again, you are right. I need to learn to just let people vent sometimes. This is especially hard when they are unjustly blaming ME for something (this is their weird way to vent), but I have to try.
Okay, now we’re way off topic. You may return to the race issue.
I disagree with the assertion that absolutely everyone is racist and that it’s impossible to be otherwise. I’ve certainly met people who make a strong effort to view each person they come into contact with as an individual and judge people by the strength of their character rather than succumb to stereotypes.
I’m not saying it’s easy or that it’s common but to say that everyone is racist strikes me as an easy cop-out.
Implicit racism should definitely be called out. Not in an over-the-top manner, like “OMG you are such a RACIST and should be so ASHAMED!” but in more of a “Hey, I know you’re not meaning to be racist here, but you might want to double check your thought process and the result.”
I don’t really know much about AirBNB, but imagine a white manager was hiring some new engineers, including one design engineer and one project engineer. There are some white guys that apply and some black guys, but the manager ends up picking white guys for all the positions, since of the candidates, it seems to him that it happens to be a white guy who is best for all the positions. Someone could ask him if he’s really sure about that. After more consideration, he might realize that for the design engineer position, the black candidate might actually be the best fit. The manager got on better with the white candidate, but that was because they knew some people in common and went to the same college and bonded over that. The white guy had an extra certification but it’s not really applicable to the position so it doesn’t really make him any more qualified. After really weighing the two thoughtfully, and going against his gut instinct which makes him more comfortable with the white candidate, the manager might pick the black candidate. And also after consideration, he might stick with the white guy for the project engineer. The black candidate is smart and seems capable, but just doesn’t have enough of the right experience, and the white candidate does.
I know that’s a long rambling hypothetical example, but I just want to illustrate that thoughtful people can realize that they have internal prejudices, or accept it when it’s pointed out, and with thoughtful consideration can minimize them.
Monstro, I agree with you, because my wife has had to deal with the same BS you have when talking about being the victim of racism. I’ve changed my perspective on the issue, because I realized I wasn’t being supportive to her by trying to rationalize a racist’s behaviors. Like you, if she is telling me she felt the victim of prejudice, it’s because she’s quite sure racism was the culprit. And she’s savvy enough to know the difference between being racist out of ignorance and doing it deliberately.
My mom has said racist things to her. But since my mom wasn’t directing them to my wife specifically, she didn’t hold it against her. Later, I took my mom aside and explained what she had done and how my wife feels. My mom felt embarrassed, apologized to my wife, and avoided saying those kinds of things from then on. Simple. My mom didn’t try to argue she didn’t intend to be racist, she just took my wife’s word for it. But then again, my mom really likes my wife and genuinely respects her, so it may be easier for her to do in that situation.
My wife is Mexican-American, not black. So her experiences with racism may not be the same as a black person. But since she considers both groups under the PoC umbrella, I think her experiences are at least parallel to yours, Monstro.
Good for your wife and your mom. It’s hard being both the “accuser” and the “accused”. I’m glad things worked out with them. And I’m sure you being 100% supportive helped a lot.
I honestly think it would be harder for white people to reflexively deny racism if every one of them was like you and had a close and trusted friend that was a racial minority. I think most white people can name a black/Latino/Asian person they like, even if it’s just a celebrity. But most white people do not know a member of a minority group who feels comfortable enough to be completely frank and honest with them. They make think they know someone like this. But they are likely wrong.
There’s a guy in my office named Gabe. There are only three black guys who work in my entire building (250 people), so Gabe sticks out like a sore thumb. Gabe is also from Nigeria, British educated, and so he doesn’t cut the stereotypical profile of an American black guy. He’s clean cut, soft spoken, and knows a lot about freshwater fish. He’s got the patriotic immigrant “boot strap” story. Everyone loves Gabe. I’m guessing Gabe is several coworker’s “black friend”.
Gabe hardly ever talks about race. He may talk about socio-cultural dynamics in West Africa and he opines about political matters here in the US. But he rarely ever says anything about his experience as a black person. When I first met Gabe, I took this silence to mean he was very conservative, probably not someone that I’d be able to relate to. I’m sure some if not most of the white people in the office assume these means he’s not weighed down by the baggage the rest of us “hypersenstive” black folks carry—which probably makes him even more likable, in their eyes. He’s not a scary angry black man.
But over the past couple of years as I’ve gotten to know him better, he’s shared with me a lot of stuff. Like how he no longer spends his coffee breaks walking laps in the parking deck because security harasses him (no one else has this problem). Or how hard it is to gain access to the building if he forgets his swipe card (and I never have problems with this). Incidents that can be brushed aside if they are isolated, but eventually weigh down the psyche if they happen frequently enough.
He feels comfortable talking to me because he knows I’m not going to dismiss his feelings or change my opinion about him. But I know he would never share this information with his white “friends”. Why would he do this when he knows they aren’t even going to try to understand?
Which means they can keep maintaining their belief that racism is not a problem, except only in the minds of hypersensitive rabble-rousers who deserve to be discriminated against. They can keep on believing that clean-cut, soft-spoken, non-thuggish, patriotic Americans like Gabe don’t have anything to worry about.
I don’t know how else to fix the problem other than to encourage people to stop arguing with their friends and try to listen with an open mind.
monstro honestly I think your characterizing what white people do as reflexive denial and your assumptions about what “they” (or most of them) think are both unfair and possibly a bit racist …
It is a bit ironic that you argue for others to have minds open wide enough to accept your closed one. You are right: I have no real friends who can be completely frank and honest with me who would not tolerate me being completely frank and honest with them as well. That is is Black White or other. It does not go only one way.
To me racism in America in effect is a given as endemic, some of it still the hate-filled bigot kind and more the more subtle sort. The impact on some groups is more harmful than on others to be sure, but make no mistake, it goes in all directions.
Yes many Whites will react to some level with anxiety or even fear to a Black young man (or group of young men) dressed in common teen garb that they won’t have to a White man (or group of young men) similarly dressed. Yes, the one Black man walking around a parking structure who “sticks out like a sore thumb” will be noticed and perhaps questioned.* And that sucks. No question, it sucks. People are uncomfortable with what they are less familiar with and without sufficient real world experiences they fill their heuristics with stereotypes with serious harms.
AND your presuming what someone thinks because they are White, your reading the same behavior as meaning one thing if it was a White person on the side of the counter and not as likely the same way if it was a Black person there, is just as racist, even if not with the exact same harmful effect. But the effect of that racism is still harmful as well.
There is no question that the explicit racist needs to (metaphorically) be slapped around a bit. But the people who are racist in action without realizing it, and those who might, just might, actually be not guilty, need to be part of a dialogue, the sort of dialogue Sam Lowry suggests. Calling them racist prevents that; it instead evokes defensiveness. Expecting the other side to just listen and not openly share what they percieve and why and if they do not sympathetically just listen nodding their head and offering to get ice cream or a beer with you just dismissing them as people not to be friends with … that prevents it too.
In that way your racist attitudes cause harm as well.
*And I got funny looks the first time, back a few years back when I still had enough hair to get haircuts, walked into a “Black” barbershop, and treated initially like I wanted something other than a haircut. I stood out. Different than usual gets noticed. It has racist impacts sometimes (not on me in my case, I got a fine haircut once he realized my patchy balding hair was pretty much like a middle aged Black man just a a short jewish White guys) but may not be motivated by any ill intent.
