Okay, I’ll bite. What “dialogue” do you think might be helpful in those moments, and who exactly should be expending the time and effort to engage in dialogue with these people? Honestly, do you really need to explain to someone that it’s not okay to follow somebody because they are Black?
I think you have this misperception that someone else’s personal growth should be my responsibility, and/or should be a burden I have to take on in order to be treated like a normal person. It’s not like we are talking about children who don’t know any better. To get to a point where you are acting on racial prejudice as an adult basically means you have chosen to ignore years of teaching, evidence, and social norms. Maybe there are some people with the misfortune to have missed all that through no fault of their own, but they are pretty rare in my opinion.
I just don’t get why after hearing about how some guy is being followed because he is Black, your main concern is whether we can engage in a dialogue with the offender in order to try to enlighten him. It’s a noble goal I suppose, but it’s more rooted in naivete, and the misimpression that their “blameless ignorance” is something that can and will be corrected with a dialogue. You act like talking to the guy nicely will result in him having some prfound revelation about how deep down inside, he is just scared of Black people, but that he wants to get better.
Spoken like someone who probably never experienced rasicm. Honestly, I can’t completely cosign what Monstro said, but I think you are deliberately twisting it to make it seem dismissive and anti-social.
The main issue is that that sort of subtle racism is so deleterious is because it makes you question yourself. I guarantee the vast majority of times a person of color has felt discriminated against, it goes unstated. It just rattles around your mind, chipping away at the confindence you have in your intuition and perception. When you do finally open up after finally convincing yourself that you correctly interpreted the situation, it’s really annoying when someone rattles off a thousand excuses about why you probably just misunderstood.
It’s like realizing you were short changed after leaving a store, knowing that going back in hours later will likely not result in you being recompensed, then having someone you tell about it go on and on asking about whether you are sure about the denomination you gave the person and wondering if someone should have a dialogue with the cashier to prevent future mistakes.
Context matters here. As a White guy, you have to generally go out of your way to look for a Black barber shop. Most Black people experience that sort of thing just going about their day doing regular things. They are not really equal despite their similarities.
That white people have a knee-jerk tendency to deny and downplay tales of woe from black people? The Straight Dope is a veritable compendium of racism denial from white people. I’ve got a great memory. I can post example after example of white Dopers engaging in this practice. Not all of them, true. But enough of them for me to see a bold pattern and make some assumptions about the general population.
Or do you disagree with my belief that most white people feel uncomfortable hearing tales of woe from black people, and that it is easier for white people to get along with black people who don’t “go there”? I admit that I can’t point to any hard evidence of this; it really is an opinion based on what I’ve experienced and how I imagine it is to be white. I mean, when I hear fat people complaining about the discrimination they feel, I feel very uncomfortable. Why are they whining to ME, like I’ve done something wrong? I feel guilty. I feel defensive. I don’t know what to say. I’d much rather they not “go there” because hearing them talking about fat discrimination makes me feel like there’s a big gulf between us. Even though I accept that fat discrimination is real.
Even if you disagree with me on both of these suppositions, it’s strange to me that you’d label them as “racist”. I seem to recall you don’t like using such a loaded word. It doesn’t bother me, but I’d really like for you to explain this.
monstro, so you’ve seen a limited number do what you consider denying and downplaying tales of woe, and you have generalized that to “white people have a tendency to …”
What part of that do you see as different in racist form for someone having a limited exposure to any other group and then stating “Jews have a tendency to …” or “Blacks have a tendency to …”? Oh enough to see a bold pattern and make some assumptions …
Maybe as a White male my meter is calibrated with inadequate sensitivity but it does not follow that your meter is 100% accurate either. Your reading any questioning whether or not your meter is correct as “reflexive denial” is unjustified unfair and arrogant.
I used the loaded word with intent … in this case illustratively and you actually do seem to get it. YES, I 100% agree that it is uncomfortable for a White to be called racist even by unspoken implication. Take how you feel in that fat person scenerio and then have that person not using the word “discriminated” but using a word that has the magnitude of emotional baggage that “racist” does to many Whites and add in that the exact episode that the fat person is describing is behavior that you, a very thin person, do all the time to all people, thin or fat, with you seeing no pattern in it, and that you see yourself as possibly being labelled that hateful thing by someone else for just doing what you normally do to the best of your knowledge fairly and without bias?
Now maybe, just maybe, you do have a prejudice against fat people, a subtle one, that you are not even aware of. And maybe not. Maybe you can’t see how the exact episode of alleged discrimination was discrimination.
brickbacon the individual circumstance dictates what is a productive response. Sam Lowry offered one scenario to gently guide some self-reflection. Having a back and forth conversation about sensitivity, hypersensitivity, unintended effects and so on.
You want to go with the Gabe example? Okay. The net effect sucks. At the same time view it from the POV of a security guard. Almost all the people in that building are White. As a guard you are unavoidably going to notice someone who looks “sore thumb” different than almost 99% of other people there. That person is walking around and around the parking deck, not apparently going to his particular car. Yes, most security guards will monitor that person, having noticed them because they were Black and having then noticed behavior that is innocent but could be interpreted as suspicious. Is he really 100% “wrong” to have done that? It has an impact that sucks, no question. But after having been stopped and questioned and having had a chance to get past the initial reaction heuristics, a conversation can be had possibly had about that beginning with some understanding about why it occurs. And of course we don’t really know that the guard would not question any one doing laps around the parking deck. And we don’t know that he is not someone who thinks that most Black males are thugs. Probably not either … do you give benefit of the doubt to the individual or not?
No, brickbacon you are under no obligation to try to make things better. And of course in reality the particular idealized conversation with the security guard is not likely to occur. And if it did the best outcome might not be acknowledgement but slightly more awareness when he next catches himslef noticing someone as diffferent based on color. You are welcome to rail against reflexive dismissals and make broad generalizations about White people. And react defensively if someone does not immediately see it from your POV with empathy. And to reflexively then dismiss that person. You are welcome to believe that there are no moments to have those coversations with people who see the world through a different lens and to react with sometnig akin to anger if they do not accept the view through your lens as 100% truth.
Of course then increased awareness of how ingrained stereotyping that we are not aware of impact our behaviors in ways that have net discriminatory effects is not going to be gained by either side.
Excuse me for not thinking that such is the ideal outcome.
I can, to some degree, get the view through that lens. I can recognize that while I have been called a kike the current impact of anti-Semitism is not like racial prejudice is and that I have not experienced racism. I can accept that as an individual I must have some of those implicit prejudices and be on the look out for them. I cannot accept that I must just nod my head and agree that anyone else’s view of reality is 100% truth else be labeled a reflexive denier … because that is what White people do.
Why do you think she’s seen a “limited” number? You’re asserting this as if somehow you’ve walked in her shoes and conducted a census. Why can’t you see that you’re coming across as exactly the kind of person she’s complaining about? You know, the white person who feels it is their place and their right to dismiss the experiences of the minority, simply because of emotional reactions. Are you intentionally trying to be that guy? I can’t really tell.
Even as we type, there’s a thread in the Pit about the latest Florida self-defense spectacle, and surprise, surprise some of the ideas being bandied about are obviously laced with racism. Sure there are folks who are willing to argue against these ideas (no one is denying that), but the fact remains that these ideas persist. Just like they persist in the real world. Even though it might be comforting to think these ideas don’t spill over into action, actually believing this is stupid and naive. When you’re black, you do not have the luxury of entertaining that delusion without paying big and small prices for it. History bears this out, and so do current events.
She has not seen an infinite number has she? She, and you, are generalizing from some visible set to the whole - the basic fallacy of how stereotypes form. More so going from highly visible media examples to a general principle.
If not coming across as that guy means facile agreement and agreement to attitudes that in my view perpetuate the problems, then I will elect to take the risk of coming across as that guy.
People falsely complaining about racism absolutely and totally exist, and are a major problem. It is an epidemic - people constantly whining that they’re being racially discriminated against, bitching about how they’re being treated unfairly when no racism exists. They are awful, and need to wake up to reality. They are constantly seeing things that aren’t there, they are so deep into their culture of victimization.
While I can’t find the link currently, it’s also been proven in students that blacks underrate the amount of racism they experience- they’re more likely to think racism isn’t in play when it is, than think that it is in play when it isn’t. For white people, it was shown the exact opposite is true.
The people who rail against the ‘Al Shaprton types’ ought to look at who actually does that behavior. But they don’t, for some reason.
My experience with this is not limited to the Straight Dope. I’ve encountered it my whole life. I’ve been around white people my whole life. I’ve been talking to white people about race almost my whole life. I have been that lone “black friend”. I have seen witht my own eyes how white people react when the “r” word is mentioned.
You can say this is a “limited” experience, but it is stll a meaningful experience. And my generalizations are no broader or more spurious than the generalizations we routinely make about “Americans”, “heterosexuals”, “men”, “women”, “Christians”, “scientists”, and “geeks and nerds”. These are all artificial groupings, and yet one can make some safe generalizations about these groups and their collective mindsets and tendencies.
I don’t think any “questioning” constitutes reflexive denial. If I were to accuse you of being racist just because we are not in agreement right now, I would WANT someone to call me out and argue with me. Because that would be a ludicrous accusation.
But if I were the black guy in the OP, I wouldn’t want my white friend to roll their eyes and psychoanalyze my thought processes if I dare speculate about my difficulty in reserving a room. I wouldn’t necessarilly want my friend to start singing “Revolution has come, it’s time to pick up a gun!” and go John Brown on my behalf either. But I wouldn’t want them to feel like they have to jump into defense lawyer mode. Perhaps in your experience, you don’t see white people doing this. But I do and it’s frustrating.
There has to be room in the dialogue for disagreement. Just like the two of us are disagreeing now…it’s not necessarily an unhealthy thing. But when it’s ALWAYS disagreement, well, how do you ever expect their to be understanding? How does one ever learn to “check” their internal biases when the first instinct is to deny that biases exist? Maybe in your world, everyone accepts they are prejudiced and affected by subconscious bias. But in my experience, almost everyone–white and black–readily denies this. And because they can’t see it in themselves, they assume everyone else is similarly innocent.
If you recall, “racist” actually isn’t that loaded for me personally, because I am not foolish enough to think that I’m not racist. Or more precisely, that I don’t have racist beliefs. I’m also prejudiced. I have ill thoughts about all kinds of people that I routinely check. But specifically, my prejudice has a racial tinge. In some contexts, my bias is for black people. In other contexts, it’s for white people.
I’m sorry that so many people get wound up over the word “racist” so much. But I’m not about to complicate my own vocabulary by being politically correct in my word choices.
I think Gabe and every single black person in the world understands why the black guy walking around in a parking deck is suspicious. Just like how swarthy-looking me knows why I got weird looks whenever I would be moshing around in the Hackensack Meadowlands shortly after 911. What’s the dialogue we need to hear, DSeid? “It sucks that this happened to you, but surely you understand that you look suspicious. Please forgive us and try to move on.”
Because IMHO, it seems much more important for us to have room to say, “Yes, we know why you guys think we look suspicious, but we hope you realize that we, as individuals, are not. And just FYI, maybe it wouldn’t hurt for you to try to be a bit more discriminating in your suspicions. Does Gabe really seem that scary? He’s five six and a 150 lbs. He’s well-dressed. He smiles. You see him ALL THE TIME. And if he seems in a bad mood sometimes, will you understand why? If he doesn’t want to drive out to your gated suburban subdivision for game night, will you understand why?”
Some white people, such as yourself, will readily admit that Gabe is discriminated against. But there are lots of others who won’t even admit to this. They will assume that there’s no way a clean-cut, well-mannered guy llike Gabe could ever be mistaken for a thug. So the dialogue above doesn’t even have a chance to happen.
This is what I have a problem with, and why it’s hard for me to not see it as a “reflexive denial”.
Or worse, they can admit he was treated like a thug, but are so steeped in their Just World mentality that they assume he must have been acting like a thug. And thus will give credence to any gun-toting white person who decides to shoot him no matter what the evidence says.
Well at least you’re completing abandoning the pretense that your standards are reasonable and fair, so there’s that.
If I didn’t know any better, I’d think you were a sock that monstro created to support her own argument. But I know she’s not crazy enough to do something like that. I mean, infinity? Seriously? Kudos to you for doing the most at being that guy.
You know what’s weird, monstro? That we have had discussions on the SDMB about men complaining getting treated like a creepo when they are alone around strange kids, and how unfair it is that people treat them with sexism in a way that single women don’t have to deal with. How they always have to cover their ass to prevent someone from falsely accusing them of doing anything bad around kids/women. That its so hard to be a single, white man. :rolleyes:
I find it ironic that it seems like the same kind of fedora-wearing MRA type that would complain about this simply can’t accept that a person of color was the victim of subtle racism; it had to be something else! The idea that its total BS that a black man can’t just take a walk without getting treated differently never crosses their mind, perhaps because they’re too busy rationalizing everyone else’s behavior. They are more self-conscious of being accused (falsely, in their minds) of being racist than emphathizing with someone whose experiences are different.
I’m not black, monstro, but somehow I am able to put myself in the shoes of another person suffering through an injustice solely based on the color of their skin. I do this by focusing on how unfair their treatment is. I imagine what it would feel like for me to go through that. Having to be treated differently, then widely dismissed/minimized when I tried to explain it to people who hadn’t necessarily been through what I went through. If this person is telling me they were the victim of racism, I’m going to assume its because they are close enough to me to assume I will be sympathetic and supportive. For my wife, I support her beliefs by focusing more on the concept of the injustice, rather than grilling her on what really happened. She’s my wife, I’m going to take her word for it. And if she trusted me enough to share how she felt than she deserves my support as a husband.
For a messageboard that prides itself on fighting ignorance, Dopers can sure have some colosssal blind spots in situations like this.
Oh get off it. The point is straightforward. Of course it is a limited amount. Maybe I am reacting this way because this degree of hypocrisy bugs the shit out of me.
These are huge generalizations about Whites being made here. And little to no apparent interest in how to actually work to solve the issues that we agree exist.
I’ve been around Blacks all of my adult life anyway. I would not presume to m ake generalizations about Blacks based on those experiences other than that I don’t think I can. Some jerks. Some people I love. Some thugs. Some brilliant scholars. Some shallow materialists worried about crabgrass. Some self-important. What Blacks think? I wouldn’t dare say that. At most I might cautiously state that my understanding is that a certain value is strong in American Black culture (like charity and helping to take care of the nextended family.)
monstro in my experience any of those generalizations, be it geeks and nerd even, let alone Whites or Blacks, need to be made with great caution. It reduces people to stereoytypes. White people I know? A wide range. Some do have awareness, some don’t, some dislike what they percieve as thug culture being glamorized, some comfortable with all, some not. Amazingly we are individuals too. And we also like the presumption of innocence.
So yes, we, you and I and all of us, have biases that we often are not aware of and yet that still impact our behavior. It has strong negative impact especially on certain minorities.
If you think calling people racist helps address that issue and improve it then I would disagree. I am in my heart a salesman and selling people on behavior change requires a different approach. Again, IMHO.
This is stupid. If you are a security guard, a Black person only sticks out in a way that requires action if you accept as a predicate that said person being Black means they will engage in conduct that garners your attention (eg. committing a crime). Aside from the fact that you assumed everyone else is White, which I don’t think was specified, even if they were all White I guarantee that several of those individuals have characteristics that stick out like a sore thumb. I bet there are a few redheads, a few exceptionally beautiful people, some people in wheelchairs, etc. It’s only because the security guard attaches significance to someone being Black that they assume he is an “other” up to no good unlike said, a redheaded person. This security guard’s POV rests upon that bias, and is therefore not really worthy of particular sympathy.
Which is fine if it’s all based on behavior, but it’s not. Either way, when you see the same Black guy doing laps around a parking lot on a regular basis, I think it makes more sense to recognize they are not there to commit a crime given that that is not typically what criminals do. Context also matters here. How often do you think people in this place are casing the work parking lot being monitored by a security guard? Given all that, I think harrassing this guy to the point he doesn’t even want to walk around is not an ideal outcome.
Yes. Why exactly is he not 100% wrong? Not only in factual terms given that the guy, AFAIK, has committed no crime and is unlikely to do so, but also because they failed to make one of the people they are there to help protect feel safe. Additionally, there unfairly target him based on his race. The guy is unequivically 100% in the wrong.
More stupidity. How do you envision this going:
Guard: Hey sir, what are you doing?
Gabe: I like to take laps during my lunch break.
Guard: You work here?
Gabe: Yes.
Guard: Ah, sorry about that. I just don’t see too many Black people around here, so it made me suspicious because I thought you might commit a crime.
Gabe: Ah, sounds good. Now that I understand yoru motivations, maybe we can have a dialogue about how we can avoid situations like this in the future.
Guard: Thanks so much. I think the best thing for me would be for you and others to avoid being Black in the future. Or at least, announce your blackness and your intentions beforehand.
Gabe: I don’t know what I was thinking walking around my work parking lot being Black. My bad
If I am Gabe’s friend, I don’t give some stranger the benefit of the doubt over the perceptions of someone I know. Why is this so hard to grasp? This isn’s a court of law. I am not saying we should arrest the guy for being a bigot. What I am saying that this idea that we should give more of the benefit of the doubt to the person accused of racism based on his actions than to someone you know is just patently stupid, and a terrible way to win friends and influence people.
Please explain why you think these dialogues will actually make things better? And better for whom?
This is not a controlled lab experiment. How exactly am I gonna know how often this security guard discriminates and for what reason?
I didn’t do that, and please don’t imply that I did.
Get off your high horse. I never said there are never moments to have conversations about race. We are doing it now. My point was that adults in this country have no excuse to act with such incivility, and that most are not worthy of being rewarded with dialogue for their racist actions.
Geez. Again you are completely distorting what is being said. If someone you know tells you something, especially if it is something largely factual that they personally feel strongly about, questioning their account of events is rude and uncalled for.
Again, let’s look at a less loaded hypothetical. Your coworker goes to get lunch for the office, and comes back complaining that the cashier gave him the wrong change, and that he only realized after he left. Is your first instinct to question him on whether he in fact made the accounting error, and to chasten him about how he should give that stranger the benefit of the doubt? Most people would not question the story at all. Why? Because they trust that the person you know perceived the event correctly, and that such an event is more plausible, given the certainty his testimony, than other scenarios. The main reason people don’t lend the same credence to specific accusations of racism is because the deny the plausibility of the claim out because that does not fit into their worldview.
I’m thinking DSeid is thinking the convo should go more like this.
Guard: Hey sir, what are you doing?
Gabe: I like to take laps during my lunch break.
Guard: You work here?
Gabe: Yes.
Guard: Ah, sorry about that. I just don’t see too many Black people around here, so it made me suspicious because I thought you might commit a crime.
Gabe: Ah, sounds good. I was just about to call you racist, but now that you clarified your motivations, instead I’ll just call you a well-meaning citizen who’s just doing his job and is totally justified in wasting my time right now with this interrogation.
Guard: Thanks a lot, Old Sport. Gee, you don’t really seem like a suspicious sort now that I’m talking with you. I guess that means it was wrong for me to make assumptions on account of your race, huh?
Gabe: Not wrong at all, pal. It’s completely understandable why I would look suspicious to you as a black guy walking around this parking lot in chinos and a button down shirt with short sleeves.
Guard: Really?
Gabe: If I were you, I’d be interrogating me too!
Back in my bus-riding days, I witnessed the following incident.
Two black kids, in their mid-teens, were riding the same bus as me, sitting a few rows apart. They started shouting to each other, and passing a football back and forth to each other. The bus driver told them to sit down and stop throwing the football. They declined to do so, and the bus driver stopped the bus and ordered them off the bus. They left, and one of them paused at the bottom of the steps and shouted at the driver “Fucking racist!” and ran off.
brickbacon - do you believe that this happened exactly as I describe?
Why would it not be plausible that two teenaged boys were acting like asses and then overrreacted when called out on it? How naive would a person have to be to deny that something like this happened? I dont understand the point Shodan is making.
Shodan, when I was in middle school, I was placed into remedial tracks in both the seventh and eigth grades, despite having had excellent grades and test scores. The the remedial tracks were overwhelmingly black and Latino in a school that was predominately white. My gut tells me I was a vicim of racial discrimination. What’s your feeling about this?
brickbacon sorry that you consider what I have to say to be so stupid. For my part I do not consider what you say to be dumb even though I disagree with it.
The one of only two or three Black guys in a building of 250 sticks out “like a sore thumb” as monstro states in ways that a red head or a beautiful person does not. I highly doubt that monstro would have stated the red head stuck out like a sore thumb. OF COURSE part of that sticking out is the belief that Black male is correlated with lower SES and not fitting in with the company - but no question that part of patrolling is looking for things that do not fit the norm that you see and watching those more carefully. I would possibly be thought suspicious walking around the back of a Black church with a package, and should be. This is not excuse; it is explanation. It informs how to work to change the behavior.
Ideally wathcing someone is based on behavior and behavior alone, sure. But few function at the ideal. (And yes, some stranger walking around a garge clearly not going to their car should be monitored. They could be looking for laptops left on seats … you’ve never had anything taken from your car?)
The “stupid” conversation I envision is based on a desired outcome that a security guard who is unaware that what he was doing was racial profiling become aware that the impact is negative, that Black men do work there, and that a more behavior based approach is desirable. That is the sale I am trying to make.
Yes, that begins with Gabe establishing his bona fides and establishing a friendly connection with the security guard. Gabe then expressing some understanding that he realizes no racist motive was intended but what has been happening is that he is always being stopped because the guards don’t see him as someone who would work here … and that it makes his being able to get some exercise on coffee breaks near impossible. Can he please spread the word among the staff that there are a few Blacks who work here and help make his life a bit easier? With luck there is a person of some value on the other side, and Guard might be able to see the circumstance from Gabe’s POV (having had your POV appreciated tends to facilitate that) and actually not only personally be less likely to racially profile in the future, but actually try to be an ally in making sure the other guards don’t as well. Maybe. Maybe not but maybe. I am an optimist. I make some sales in my life and don’t make others.
I think that conversation though has the potential to make things better for all involved.
I do give strangers the benefit of the doubt. If a White friend says something negative about someone that seems to be based on nothing real or perhaps biased by some prejudicial factor I will question it. I will, IRL, be cautious and circumspect about doing it with a Black friend about something racial, but cautiously I might. Honestly though I must admit … outside of work my life is mostly focused around my family. The days of hanging around with friends socially much are not much of my current life. I more stay in touch and make special events with old buddies or socialize around events in my kids’ lives. So what people do with friends is not something I can really comment much on.
brickbacon I have pled guilty to being aware that I have caught myself making first impression conclusions partly biased by group memberships, including race … probably without thinking about it consciously I have sat myself closer to the White old man on the bus and away from the group of quiet Black teens. Does that incivility make me not worthy of engaging in a dialogue?
Shodan, monstro is not claiming that there are not doofuses who play the race card to excuse their misbehaviors, or who even believe it. She is claiming that if she says it it should be not be challenged by people who know her. And I get that; it makes sense. IRL if I thought the story sounded a bit contrived I would likely shut up unless asked and then be careful to choose my words with much thought.
(My Bolding) That is your editorializing. But feel free to replace redhead with albino or little person or guy with an eye patch. Do you honestly think they would stick out any less?
Again, you start wading into bullshit again. Nigerians, which Gabe is, have higher incomes and more educational attainment than nearly every other group in the US. Given that Gabe is Nigerian, why didn’t the security guard correlate that with higher SES and lower likelihood of committing a crime? Is his Blackdar broken, or is it that his assumptions are faulty and his conclusions are spurious?
More importantly, most people don’t commit crimes in areas where they will stick out like a sore thumb. That’s kinda the point. Criminals by and large go for the path of least resistance. Why would a security guard think such a person needed extra scrutiny? Did Gabe’s racial predisposition towards crime overwhelm his criminal instinct for survival?
Why do you keep comparing a member of the majority deliberately seeking out a place where they will be in the minority as if it were analogous to a minority going about his day in the majority White world? They are not the same at all, and more importantly, I doubt you approaching a Black church with a package would make people think you had ill intent. They may wonder why a White guy went out of his way to find some Black church to attend, but their first thought wouldn’t be to think you were about to cause trouble.
Context matters. This is a professionally dressed man at a work parking lot doing laps for exercise, not looking or approaching random cars.
Again, this is stupid because you simultaneously hold the position that someone pointing out his racism will make him defensive, and that he is unaware of his racial biases. If they are both true, the dialogue is a pointless exercise. If Gabe just telling the guy that he works there makes him reflect on how racial profiling is not okay, then he realizes he was actively engaging in that practice. Furthermore, it is both putting the onus on Gabe to rectify this guy’s behavior, and incorrectly making the rectitude of his racial profiling results based. The latter is problematic because whether or not Gabe is a nefarious character, the profiling he employs is wrong. And that’s not even getting into the general stupidity of expecting these interactions leading to meaningful racial progress in the moment.
And the guard is gonna readily admit he was harassing Gabe because he was Black? Highly fucking unlikely. Either way, Gabe shouldn’t have to do that. Why should he have to have to jump through a bunch of hoops just to get the same respect someone who isn’t Black is granted on a routine basis? The idea that Black people need to affirmatively ask to be left the fuck alone is ridiculous, and the fact that you don’t recognize that speaks to you blissful and willful ignorance on the matter. Would you be okay with me suggesting you tell every cashier you interact with that you’re Jewish so they don’t think you are trying to screw them?
Also consider that the vast majority of security guards are not even allowed to engage suspects or try to prevent crimes. Trying to strong arm Gabe serves little to no purpose.
It’s not giving strangers the benefit of the doubt, it’s doing that at the expense of someone you know whose account is the only account that you have. It has little to do with the stranger and more to do with the credibility of the speaker and the story. Questioning the story is questioning their veracity and judgement.
Is this really that hard?
How would you have reacted if one of those Black kids called you out? You, like most, would vehemently deny it. More importantly, I doubt you would make a different decision the next time unless you were trying to prove to yourself you aren’t prejudiced. Either way, very few people give a shit if you don’t sit next to them on a bus. People do care when they are harassed and bothered for looking different.
I feel the need to clarify something about Gabe’s story. It’s not as if the same security guard harasses him every time he goes walking. We actually no longer have a security guard in the parking deck. What happens is that someone sees the black guy moving around suspiciously and they call the city police.
How does someone establish the kind of dialogue you’re talking about, DSeid, with the police? They are just following up on a report of suspicious activity. They aren’t necessarily the ones with a bias.
Whenever I have been in an awkward situation with a racial flavor to it, I wasn’t in the right frame of mind to have a dialogue with anyone. Like, the time I was interrogated by a “concerned citizen” while doing field work in the Meadowlands, I was so flummoxed and frightened that I couldn’t even say my name. One minute I had fiddler crabs on the brain, and then the next minute a guy is yelling at me from his big truck, demanding to know what I was doing and who I am and who could vouch for me. It was only while I tearfully drove back to my lab that it dawned on me that I had likely been racially profiled. Who was I supposed to engage in a productive and meaningful dialogue with?
When I got back to my lab, I told my labmates what happened to me. At that point, I’d wiped away the tears and I was able to laugh at the insanity of it all. But I never told my labmates about my suspicions. One of them would have been cool about it; I don’t know if it’s because he was Jewish or what, but I could always speak my mind without being PC around him. But the others? They would have told me to calm down and not jump to conclusions since after all, I didn’t have an infinite amount of evidence proving the guy was a racist. Or they would have told me not to label the concerned citizen “racist”, since he didn’t mean any harm and only racists intend harm. And I wouldn’t have been in the mood to hear either. So I kept the source of my hurt to myself.
So in my experience, it’s impractical to think you can have the dialogue in the midst of a racial incident. If the situation is really uncomfortable and scary, you are not going to be calm or level-headed. You’re not going to have the right words already lined up in your head. And it’s actually unfair to expect someone to squelch their emotions just so they can be gracious enough to the jerk who’s giving him/her a hard time. HOWEVER, discussing racial incidents amongst friends after the fact can turn them into “teachable moments.” If Gabe told a white friend about his parking deck experiences and the friend was able to listen without judgment, perhaps the friend would catch himself the next time he mentally labeled a random black guy on the street as “suspicious.” He might think to himself, “Hey, that guy could be Gabe. And here I am, assuming he’s a mugger. That’s not cool.” And then that would be one less person calling the police at the first sign of a black guy in a parking deck.
In other words, the guy who yelled at me should be having a dialogue about racism with his black friend. Assuming he has one.
Most of your post I am not going to respond to as it has reached a point of talking past each other. I have made my case the best I can. You misunderstand much of what I have tried to state and what you do understand you see no merit in. So be it.
The one bit that I do think is worth specifically commenting on is this:
I have a hard time understanding why this seems so pointless to you. You really do not comprehend how calling someone a racist, how presuming ill intent and treating someone as if they have ill intent, will result in one likely reaction, and how attempting to understand and appreciate someone else’s POV, reflecting it back to them, developing a connection with someone, and then inviting them to attempt to see it from your POV as well, will possibly have another? One that might raise awareness and cause behavior change, precisely because it does not require having to accept a premise full of serious emotional baggage?
I sell behavior change every day. Of course I don’t always succeed. Obviously. But it is doable. Most people are not evil. They do not have moustaches that they twirl. Ignorance is not stupidity either.