Dave Barry devoted part of a chapter in Dave Barry Does Japan to the Japanese penchant for obliquely saying things to avoid directly broaching unpleasant or negative topics. The Japanese folks he talked about didn’t indirectly request things (as most of this thread discusses) – they indirectly said “no”. Only it was so widespread and so nuanced to the typical American that he and his wife were driven to frustration.It went something like this
“I want to take a plane from Tokyo to Kyoto”, his wife (on the phone, in their Florida home) would say to a travel agent.*
“I see,” they would reply.
“Can you tell me what times the flights are?”
“You want to take a plane?”
“Yes”
“Perhaps you would like to take a boat.”
“No, we want to go by plane.”
“I see.”
“Can you tell me the schedule?”
“I can give you the schedule for the boat,”
“I don’t want the schedule for the boat,” she would scream, making the dogs crawl around on their bellies, in case they’ve done something wrong.
What she didn’t realize was that the Japanese travel agent was saying “there is no plane from Tokyo to Kyoto, you zitbrain,” only saying it politely and indirectly.
*cities chosen at random to illustrate the point. I don’t know if there is direct train or rail service between them. Don’t tell me, even indirectly.
Years ago I asked an attractive young lady out on a date. She accepted, but in the meantime had a joke to tell me. I don’t remember the details, but it was about a frog and the punch line was “Look at that S-Car go!” I didn’t get the joke, but years later I figured out that it was a pun. There was a very expensive French restaurant in town named “Escargot”, and she wanted me to take her to it (apparently).
My understanding that this is common in many Asian (and other cultures) in situations where a subordinate does not want to do anything to challenge or disappoint a superior. A compounding factor is the idea that in those same cultures the listener is held to be responsible for correctly interpreting the missive, no matter how cryptic it may be.
This has caused problems in places like airliner cockpits when a copilot sees a major hazard (e.g. imminent fuel exhaustion, or large mountain dead ahead) and only feels capable of delivering subtle hints to the captain, even despite impending doom.
Of course it’s not a completely female thing. But yes, it is a bit more of a feminine style of communication than being direct. And I don’t believe that it’s necessarily passive-aggressive, anymore than English is more passive aggressive than German. (Which is just plain aggressive.)
A friend, who is about the girliest girl I know, met a guy the other night. She told me that they had this conversation late on the night they met:
Him: “So, are you hungry for ice cream?”
Her: “No.”
Him: “Uh, how about pizza?”
Her: “No, I’m not really hungry at all.”
Him: “Beer?”
Her: “Nope.”
Him: “I don’t want any of those things either. I’m just trying to find a way to spend more time with you.”
My FiL is the past master of passive-aggressive speak. It has carried over to my husband.
When hubby was a kid, the way he was told to mow the lawn was through a conversation between mom and dad.
Dad: “The grass is getting pretty long.”
Mom: Well, maybe you should mow it."
Dad: “I have to fix the widget on the thingambob”
Mom: “Maybe the neighbor will mow ours when he mows his.”
Dad: " I don’t think he’s going to mow today."
Mom: “My back is bothering me, so I can’t do it.”
This might go on for 20 minutes until sonny gets the point. :smack:
Now, hubby tries the same thing with me. It doesn’t work. I am blunt and obtuse.
Do you think I feel you may not be wrong about the way I feel regarding…wait…Do you think I feel I may be trying to conform to…hold on…it’s coming…:eek: I mean…
I think she was joking because of the at the end of the statement.
Lacunae Matata, were you joking?
Should I be asking that question?
Was that too direct?
O hell. I REALLY have no talent for this. Not even a little.
Yeah, I was joking (although his Father’s Day gift IS awesome.) But it shouldn’t take a lot of hinting around to prompt him to get me a cheap-o card that purports to be from the kids - just a little recognition of the day. (And no, he didn’t forget about Mother’s Day. He sent flowers to his mother, and to his late grandmother’s grave, for pity’s sake!) Instead, I got to get up, make my own coffee, do a few loads of laundry, cook dinner, take care of the baby and the two older kids, and go to work at 11 pm. Qu’elle celebration, no?
As we neared what turned out to be the end of the marriage, he started being more and more oblique about stating what he wanted and then using my failure to read his mind as “evidence” that I was irresponsible, flaky, and careless. Basically he wanted to be able to blame me for everything. Over the years, he got me believing that I was indeed irresponsible, flaky and careless.
And example–he usually took care of getting the oil changed in the car. Sometimes he’d ask me to do it if he didn’t have time or whatever.
So one weekday he said “the Subaru needs its oil changed,” just like he’s said every time it needed its oil changed. Naturally, I assumed that he was just giving me a heads-up about something he was planning to do that weekend, because that was what it had always meant previously and I didn’t think any more about it.
A couple of weeks later, he said something like “the sticker on the car hasn’t changed.” What sticker? The one they put on the windshield when they changed the oil. I was confused, as I didn’t know why he was telling me this. A lovely discussion ensued where he insisted that he had asked me to do it and I insisted that he hadn’t. But because he had eroded my self-esteem so much, I believed that I had just forgotten about it and felt really bad about myself and he got to score one in the “ways that Elizabeth is a failure” column.
For some reason, a little while later I remembered the initial conversation and confirmed to myself that he had used words that based on all previous experience meant “I have an errand to do” and expected me to understand them as “Please do this errand.”
At which point I realized that he had been effectively gaslighting me for years–making me think it was my fault for not doing things that as far as I knew, he had never asked me to do in the first place.
I think a lot of us guys grow up learning that Mother’s Day is the day to do something for our mothers and somehow don’t always make the logical leap that we ought to also do something for someone else’s mother (even if it’s the mother of our own children).
Well, yeah. But it’s a little much to expect the 6-week-old to go out and choose her own card for Mommy…
Nah, it really wouldn’t have bothered me, except that he actually took the time/trouble/money to buy cut flowers for a dead person, but not even a card for the mother of his child. (Besides, the flowers would have pissed his grandmother right off: not only did Mr. M forget to specify no carnations, which she hated, hated, hated; but she would have been appalled at the waste. If he had asked for my opinion, I’d have suggested that Mr. M send a donation in Grandmother’s memory to one of the charities she supported.)
I’m really curious about others’ opinion, though: should I really have to say (explicitly) “Honey, I’d like for you to at least take the kids to the store so that they can get me a card for special occasions, or help them destroy the house with glitter and glue to make me something, or something really minor just in recognition of the day.”? (How in hell am I supposed to punctuate that, anyway?)
“Babe, I’d rather not make a Big Deal about Mother’s day this year - we’re both so exhausted with the newest Matata! Just a card from you and the kids would be fine.”
Says 1) I don’t want or need a big ruckus but 2) I do want some small recognition. Boom.
Or, to say now, after the fact:
“Honey, just so you know - when I said I didn’t want you to make a Big Deal about Mother’s day, I meant it - but I didn’t mean I didn’t want it observed at all! Just a card would have been fine. It’s not a huge thing, you show me you love me every day - but a little recognition of the significance of all that work I did making a new human would have been nice!”
at the end of the statement.