The cost to society certainly outweighs the (extremely) limited utility they provide.
On what do you base this opinion? Seriously; how do you measure the utility of having children, and on what basis do you conclude it’s below the cost?
Since most of them are going to grow up to become productive members of society, whose taxes and labor will support you in your dotage, consider it an investment in the future. Now explain to me what utility people past their prime, who are disabled, retired, or never worked, provide to society, since they will never hold a job again. This is what you’re getting at, right? Kids don’t work and only suck up resources without giving back. The same could be said of people on the other end of the life cycle. Is this how we judge people? What benefit they currently give to Carol Stream? I certainly fucking hope not. We, as a society, agree to support people at the beginning and end of the their lives. You too benefited from it as a kid and will benefit from it as an old person. This is self-evident, so your point is?
I can’t believe that we discuss the utility of children to society - you are nuts! nuts! nuts!
Next topic: the utility of trees to forrests. We will hear the opinions of leading lumberjacks.
Seriously, how do you conclude that children add utility to society in general? Sure, to the parents, grandparents, other family members, random friendly neighbors, but to the other 300M of us?
What a lame argument. My dotage, as you so kindly put it, won’t happen for another 40 years or so. And I will support myself, thank you very much.
Children add utility economically in the role of consumers, everything from medical research and care (how many medicos would be needed if children hadn’t been invented??) to the entire education system. Without kids needing feeding and clothing, transporting and entertaining, the entire manufacturing system of ALL western developed countries would collapse overnight giving us privileged adults a very limited life expectancy AND a bloody miserable one in the interim.
Next?
WHA? We need children to provide work for doctors, teachers, bus drivers, and clowns? Huh?
We need children to have somebody who will become doctors, teachers, bus drivers, and clowns.
No kids -> No people
Can you refute that?
Yup.
And car manufacturers with all the attendant parts and repair industries, food production and retailing, clothing production and retailing, toys, book publishing and sales ad nausem etc whatever.
Take children out of an ‘economy’ and the economy will collapse. There would not be the demands for goods, services and resources needed by an adult-only population necessary to ensure even basic goods/services so the vast majority of us would be unemployed.
As few would be working, the tax burden on those who DO work would make it financially untenable to continue working. So who is going to look after our basic needs…if we are unable to provide for ourselves, and the government can’t either?
**
Carol**, I’ve not interacted with you on the boards before, but I have read some of the stuff you write. Either you are phenomenally selfish, stupid, or trolling to not ‘get’ the notion that kids have a role and a purpose in this world.
Right. I take it you won’t be drawing on your social security, then? That’s supported by younger generations, as I’m sure you know. Also, when you’re old and no longer contributing labor and resources to the economy, you’re going to need someone else to do it, as flonks is pointing out.
ETA: Carol Stream, read Children of Men for an idea of what society without children would be like. Not a world I’d want to live in.
The idea that children exist to provide jobs for people to care for them is circular.
And if Rubystreak thinks that Social Security is going to be around when I retire, I want some of what she’s smoking.
I have read it. I’m not saying that children shouldn’t exist, just that the overwrought arguments that “children contribute to society each and every day” are just bullshit.
Considering that society can’t exist without them, I think their potential future utility gives us plenty of reason to put up with them. Ironically, I generally like kids better than adults. On an average day I find that they’re more tolerable than many adults.
Yes, it is indeed circular, but that is EXACTLY how current developed economies actually work. We work, we purchase goods and services with our salaries, which in turn provides jobs for others who work and purchase g & s with THEIR salaries etc. It’s an interdependent system…we rely upon others to buy the goods we produce and they rely upon us likewise. Apart from very small communities who are solely subsistance producers, all societies and economies work this way.
You will note though that if the goods and services children consume (either uniquely or just because of their sheer numbers) are taken out of the ‘economy’ then the majority of current workers would NOT have a job…there would be a massive constriction of demand and the economy (and the society at large) would shut down.
I know that this is the Pit, so cites aren’t required, but do you have any independent support for the argument that you and Rubystreak are making? As I said, and you agreed, it’s circular logic, which is by defintion, NOT logical. Sorry to sound like Mr. Spock, but in all honesty, it doesn’t make any sense to me.
I didn’t make any claim that is was logical. I do claim though that logic plays no part in an economic world…individual and market behaviours dictate ‘the rules’ not an appeal to the laws of logic or nature. You seem to be a bit muddled I think.
Can you then still deny that children contribute positively to society even if it is through so mundane a thing as ensuring economic prosperity?
:dubious:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I listened to my dad saying that for 40 years, and guess what he’s collecting now?
The cost to society of children is simply investing in the future. Someday, they’ll be full members of society, and I, at least, think it’s a pretty good idea that they be civilized, educated, and productive members.
I’ll note here that Page 24 was a terrific disappointment. The plot was thin, and though the carnage was entertaining and true to life, it in no way made up for the lack of character development.
A late cameo by a newcomer to the thread offered some potential but, sadly, the curtain was rung down on Page 24 before that potential was fulfilled.
Yup.