people who won't listen (an in-law thing)

Yes, I’m about to complain about my In-Laws. My MIL is driving me up the wall right now and I am about two seconds from firing off an angry e-mail to her… so I’d like to think of this post as distraction.

Basically my husband’s parents were married for 17 years, and his freshman year of college–when he was 18 and his sister was 12-- they divorced. What proceeded is the nastiest, most brutal series of divorce proceedings I’ve ever seen – and my Mom was married four times, you’d think I’d be familiar with this stuff by now. Sufficed to say, over four years later, they are STILL–as in, this moment–fighting in court over my husband’s sister (who is now 16.)

To put it gently, my husband’s dad is a narcissistic dick. He is the “crown prince” of an extremely wealthy family and therefore is accustomed to doing and getting whatever he wants. He reeks of entitlement and is often emotionally neglectful and extremely controlling toward his daughter. I could go on, and you would hate him too… but this post isn’t about him, it’s about my crazy MIL.

Oh don’t get me wrong, I love her… she’s a far more loving and lovable person than FIL… I do consider her like my own parent in many ways, and she has offered me more parental love and concern than I’ve ever felt in my life. She has many, many good qualities, but at present the annoying things about her are suffocating me.

Ever since the divorce, MIL has insisted on playing the role of this dramatic and tortured victim of her ex-husband. If something in her house broke down, it was somehow his fault. If she had a health problem, it was somehow his fault. She overblows everything that he does to the point that he is made into the biggest cruelest person on the face of the planet and she the hapless victim… she still repeatedly refers to herself as his victim, even though she hasn’t been married to him for four years. She complains that he’s deliberately trying to financially ruin her and that he’s succeeded. She bitches about court costs even when it was her who took him to court in the first place.

Since the beginning she has repeatedly placed undue pressure on my husband (and now me) to fix all these problem for her. At the beginning of the divorce she actually mailed her son the court documents detailing his father’s many wrongdoings and asked for feedback and advice. She e-mails us about three times a day detailing what misery her and his sister’s life is (and I’m getting to the sister in a moment.) Everything she sends to her ex, she forwards to us. She tells us personal things about SIL and asks us desperately for advice because everything is so out of control and she can’t take it anymore. She calls late at night in a panic, tells us some crazy story about what FIL did to SIL, and then when we call and get ahold of SIL we find out the whole thing was way overblown. She has subpoenaed us both to testify in court against my FIL–though fortunately for her it was canceled at the last minute. For the record, this woman is in her 50’s… we’re 23 and 24, respectively… and she’s asking us for PARENTING and DIVORCE advice?

Mr. Olives has repeatedly, and I mean repeatedly, made it clear that it is extremely painful for him to be put in the middle of all this, and he doesn’t want to hear about it. He’s sat her down, he’s written her letters, he’s been sweet, he’s been mean, he’s been firm… she WILL NOT LISTEN. She immediately replies on the defensive: “I will NOT keep things from my children! I will not lie about the abuse I’ve endured!” blah blah blah and what usually follows is an even longer spiel detailing the injustice, as if we didn’t get it or something. Once she even had the gall to compare her divorce to my abuse as a child–to say, “I validated YOU when you were upset so you have to validate ME or else you’re just as bad as people who didn’t believe you when you disclosed.”

Ordinarily I would be able to drop this, to just ignore her and minimize the impact she has when she gets like this, but there is actually a 16-year-old’s life hanging in the balance. My sister is one of the most awesome people you will ever meet… but because of her mother’s attitude, and her mother’s victim ideology, and her mother’s narcissism, we are watching her life go right down the tubes.

My sister is utterly convinced, with the help of her mother, that her father is the worst person on the planet, and that her life is the most tragic in all of existence. She is required to see him once every other weekend, but has taken to drastic measures like hiding from him when he goes to pick her up. Confrontations with him almost always involve the police being called. She has made plans to “run away to a youth shelter” (I swear to Jesus, her mother actually called and asked us whether this was a feasible plan!) in the event that she’s forced to go see her father. She keeps saying, “I’m going to emancipate from him when I’m 17!” and her mother encourages this response. She has repeatedly broken the law (violated a court order to close down her MySpace account), she has been caught drinking and smoking (which MIL insists is “overblown” and her ex just trying to make her look like a bad parent), self-injuring (again, MIL says this is “overblown” to make her look bad), and this incredibly brilliant child totally blew off schoolwork and nearly failed all of her classes (she brought them back up in time–but MIL insists, “I can’t MAKE her study!”) WHY is she destroying her life, you ask? Because it’s so fundamentally unfair that she has to see her Dad and that her Dad controls her life and that her Dad has financially ruined her mother… in other words, her mother’s ideology has become hers.

Now… I have to admit, I find this more than a little offensive. I came from an egregiously abusive background, and I DID emancipate at 17… it KILLS me, it just KILLS me that this kid thinks her life is as bad as it gets. I’ve been through shit that would make her head spin… and yet, I also know people who have been through shit that would make MY head spin. I’m not saying I never indulged in self-pity over my bad circumstances… but I AM saying I ALWAYS took responsibility for myself. Instead of saying, “Oohh my life sucks therefore I shouldn’t have to have any responsibility” I said, “Okay, I guess I have to work harder.” I put MYSELF through college for Chrissake, with no parents holding my hand along the way… and my sister’s going to lie down and die and piss her future down the drain because her Daddy’s mean to her? My MIL’s bitching about “living in poverty” and she just bought a new car… I’ve paid for my gasoline in nickels before, two and three dollars at a time. I’m supposed to weep because SIL has to read with her bedroom door open? You’re telling this to a woman whose mother punched holes in her bedroom wall and threatened to kill her with her stepfather’s shotgun.

Forget it. It’s so stupid. I’m so angry. My sister has such a bright future ahead of her, and I see both of her parents as ruining it all. For a long time we emphasized being supportive of SIL’s pain… telling her we were on her side and she could talk to us whenever… she trusts and loves us, will tell us things she won’t tell them. But none of that “feeling validating” has changed her behavior… she’s just becoming more self-indulgent, more depressed, more rebellious. What she really needs is a good kick in the ass, a “suck it up!” so-to-speak. Her life will be completely her own in less than two years… and she has to take responsibility for its direction right now. God knows her parents aren’t going to do anything for her.

Anyways, thanks for listening.

Want to join me and Mouse_Maven when we get together for lunch? I’ve owed her lunch for about a year, we have to swap Mom Stories, although mine never threatened me with any guns. Ann Arbor is a bit far from her, we’ll have to work out something.

Family. Wouldn’t be alive with them, can’t live with them.

It gets better. Sometimes. Sometimes, you just get better at dealing with it.

I believe this is true. To be fair, the gun thing was only one time. I’m pretty satisfied with my current relationship with my Mom… she doesn’t behave this way anymore. But I am glad I’m not the only one here who has been through that sort of thing. I’m glad there is life beyond those experiences…

…that’s all I’m trying to say, really. I’m not saying my SIL doesn’t have a right to feel hurt, betrayed, or angry… but I am saying we have a responsibility for ourselves. And if I could live through my childhood and still make good choices for myself, then she can do it too.

ETA: Of course I’d love to have lunch with you! I’ll be in Barcelona for a day or two this summer… :wink:

Is there any way your husband’s sister can come live with you? Or maybe getting her some counseling?

As far as your MIL is concerned, she gets off on being a martyr. Start screening her calls, deleting her e-mails unread, and basically saying, “That’s it, no more, you’re a grown woman, now act like it.” It is fundamentally cruel and unfair that she continues to drag you in the middle, and it is harming your SIL tremendously, having to live with that poison.

Quit letting her guilt you into being her sounding board. The only person who can make you feel guilty is YOU, so stop it, right now.

Well thank god she’s 16. At least you know there is some sort of end in sight in a year or two. Then what does MIL have to cry about besides money. SIL is then free to do whatever she pleases cutting contact with both of them off, or neither, or one of them.
If after that MIL will not let things wind down then I fear she lives for the drama and has decided her misery gives her life meaning. At that point you just have to hold strong with the tough love and tell her she needs to get over it and you don’t want to hear about it.

My advice:

In regards to your MIL, I think it’s past time you and your husband stopped being the receptacles for her crap. If H. has talked to her, written her letters, told her repeatedly how hurtful he finds it to hear her bitch about his dad, it’s time to stop allowing it. Every time she brings her ex up, shut her down. “I don’t want to hear about that.” “But your father --” “I said I don’t want to hear about that. If you bring it up again, I’m leaving the room/hanging up.” Then do it. Maybe one last “This is it” conversation: “I love you and I appreciate all you’ve done for me (us), but it kills me to hear you badmouth Dad, and I’m telling you right now, I’m not listening to it any more.” Then refuse to listen to it anymore. E-mails? Delete them unread. If she then says that she included something unrelated that you needed to know, tell her you just skimmed the e-mail and saw it was about Dad and deleted it, and if she wants you to read her e-mails she needs to leave that stuff out. You can only explain your postion so many times before she either gets it or she doesn’t; then you have to start creating some emotional distance for your own sake and the sake of your husband. And do it matter-of-factly: No fights, no yelling, no accusations, just “we’re not listening to this anymore, we’re not going to be in the middle of this any more.” Then don’t, don’t be.

In regards to the SIL: Please try not to view her only through the lens of your own remarkable accomplishment. The fact that you survived and are apparently thriving after an extremely shitty childhood is admirable – but that doesn’t mean everyone else can do it. “You don’t know how good you have it” or “It’s not that bad” are of no help to her, because it is that bad to her, in her experience, which differs from yours. She’s 16. She’s being told a bunch of stuff by her mom, which she apparently believes. Assuming she genuinely believes it – and there’s no indication she doesn’t – then of course she will avoid her father and support her mother, because she sees him as she has been taught to see him.

But that is not your responsibility, and she is not your responsibility. I would suggest you and your H. make sure she knows that you love her and you support her (in a positive way, which doesn’t include condoning things like screwing up at school and going out drinking), that you are always there for her, and that your home is open to her. You can be a peaceful refuge for her, a person she can talk to and a place she can go to where the issue of her parents is off-limits, unless she wants to discuss it. The best thing you can do for her is to be a good example, by making a good life with your husband, refusing to be drawn into drama, and doing what it best for yourself and him without regard to what other people might want you to do in order to advance their own agenda. It sounds like the girl really needs a friend. You could be that if you wanted to. But she is not your child, you are not her parent, and however damaging you may think her upbringing is, it is not your place to interfere.

My two cents.

Right.

I have a solution for you in regards to at least the unwelcome communications from your mother-in-law. It was provided for me by my own very best friend in order to help me cope with my mother-in-law (who is, by all accounts, a passive-aggressive, manipulative, emotionally abusive drama queen who delights in the misfortune of others and who does not shirk at causing (or attempting to cause) that misfortunte if there isn’t any on the horizon for her to delight in).

My best friend’s advice is as follows:

"When she says or does something you find hurtful/inappropriate/manipulative/<insert poor parental behavoir here>, respond as follows: “My goodness. I can see this has been very upsetting for you and I can certainly understand your distress. <Spouse> and I would never want to add to your troubles and stress at a time like this, so we will call/email/visit you at <specify time/date at least 5 days in the future> when you have a moment.” Then say good bye and immediately hang up/leave. Edit the statement as needed to suit the situation, but the bones stay the same.

In my mother-in-law’s case, she tends to yammer harmlessly away for a while and then all of a sudden ramp into a full-scale rant (or insert snarky comments in a sweet tone of voice). In either case, I only employ my best friend’s advice when it’s clear she’s either launched or about to launch - or immediately after the first snarky comment. It doesn’t do anything to help her, but it does spare us a huge amount of stress and emotional chaos. It’s hard for her to get upset with it - because it’s very polite, just not allowing her to suck us into her chaos and drama.

As far as the sister is concerned, all you can do is be there for her - and if she asks for advice, tell her what you honestly think, as tactfully as possible.

I imagine therapy is out of the question… ?
Find a family councilor for you and your husband. Have your husband tell mommy dearest that her problems are impacting your life together and invite her (and SIL) along to some sessions.
It’s worth a shot…

Well, as far as SIL is concerned, she’s in counseling with her Dad but it usually ends in her running away sobbing in the middle of the session. Personally I think she needs individual therapy–her parents are a lost cause. Everything at this point is in the judge’s hands… we aren’t permitted to contact the judge, either.

As far as hubby and I are concerned, we only have so much money. I’m still in therapy dealing with my own childhood/young adult experiences, and recently we just added couples’ sex therapy in an attempt to cope with more of my own past shit. It’d be quite a strain on our schedules and pocketbooks (and emotional lives) to add more.

I think that’s kind of one of the points I’m trying to underscore here. We have our own shit to deal with, we don’t need this extra drama.

And, I want it to be clear, I’m not condemning this child for being hurt by her life experiences… if anything, I feel more empathy for her having dealt with controlling behavior, emotional abuse and narcissism before. If she wants to spend all of our time together sobbing, so be it… she’s got pain, she needs to express it. What I have a problem with are these behaviors… she is doing irresponsible things and blaming her situation on those behaviors. I just don’t think it’s right, or helpful to her success in life, to excuse away her behaviors. She needs to learn to handle unfairness and pain in a mature way that won’t hurt herself in the future. The best thing she can do right now is work on sticking to her principles and her goals in spite of those who would try to tear her down.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the drama triangle. My ex-MIL used to do this to my ex and I. I just ignored it, but the ex would invariably get trapped, and he would try to draw me in to his own drama triangles when we were married.

Professional victims like your MIL are in it for the attention. If your husband keeps responding by giving her attention, it just keeps the cycle going. It’s time for brute force - he needs to tell his Mom that he isn’t going to talk to her if all she has to say is bitching about his father.

Of course, you can’t control what your husband does any more than he can control what his mother does. I’d be really surprised if this behavior came out from absolutely nowhere, so your husband may already be hooked into the transaction, and once you’re hooked, it’s very hard to get unhooked.

As for SIL, it’s nice to be supportive, but that really needs to be leavened with a certain amount of reality checking. It sounds like you have the experience to maybe give her some perspective on her problems, and possibly to point out that there are better ways of dealing with them than the options her mother has taught her.

I think your SIL has to get out of that situation. Is there an aunt or a grandmother she can go to? She’s going to be very damaged if this isn’t fixed quick.

Well, we wrote her an e-mail, saying, in effect, “We’ve told you a million times that we don’t want to hear it. So stop.” And Mr. Olives listed things that were and were not appropriate to discuss with him. And I know it’s not going to change her behavior… she already wrote three e-mails back, complete with the classic guilt trip… but I’m not responding to them, and neither is Dom. If we can change our own behavior–if we can stop the cycle by refusing to indulge it, EVER, and sticking to our word and ignoring those “pity me” e-mails… well maybe things will get better.

I admit I initially got very caught up in the drama of the whole thing. She was very kind to me and I was very lonely and wanted a family of my own. I truly believed she was a victim… but that was four and a half years ago, and I’ve watched her consistently refuse to get any help, deny that the problem could possibly be with her attitude, and ignore her children’s feelings. So no, I don’t feel bad for her any more. I just feel bad for my sister. And we’ll do everything we can to be there for her, as we’ve been doing… and maybe some day soon I’ll sit down and I’ll tell her the story of my life, and how I had to learn the unfortunate truth that in the real world, nobody cares what you went through as a kid… you’re still held to the same standards of conduct as everyone else in the world. You still have to go to work, pay your bills, and be a law-abiding citizen, no matter how crazy you feel.

I don’t know. I just appreciate the advice.

Dates, dates, I need specific dates!