Its easier to edit a post than to edit your mind. I didn’t want this to be a “i’m depressed” thread so I made a thread to view other persons opinions on getting therapy. I don’t want to get therapy because I’m afraid they wont get to the root of the problem. What if therapy doesn’t work? I did mention being depressed in post 24.
I wish every drug had the placebo effect! Then no one would be sick and everyone would take their meds.
Last year I was put on a bunch of meds for depression (which I now believe was not a satisfactory diagnosis). Those things fucked me up. No amount of determination or positive thinking were enough to make those drugs actually work, and their failure actually illustrated to me the complexities of brain chemistry. Fortunately I’m on some new ones and they seem to be a lot better. No, they are a lot better.
Secondly, there’s a reason why patients go to doctors. Patients have a limited perspective, even if it is their mind, and sometimes their blind spot is the direct result of their illness. Some people can’t describe their emotions well enough to tell someone what’s wrong with them accurately , so a doctor has to get to know them for a long time before they can get a diagnosis. That’s why I wouldn’t recommend going to a psychiatrist right away unless a person was certain they knew what was wrong. Psychologists and other non-medical types will try to get to know you for awhile before they come up with an official diagnosis.
You could be depressed because you’re at that age where hormones are churning, relationships are naturally intense, you’re faced with responsibilities you aren’t accostomed to, you have pressue to “grow up”, or maybe you don’t have a strong identity yet. Teenage years are hard for many people.
You could be depressed because you have a genetic predisposition to it, as is the case in my family.
Or it could be a combination of the above. In other words, you may have some real reasons for being depressed, but the depression is exacerbated by a biological chemical imbalance.
Your family probably doesn’t know what to say or do. Sometimes depressed people can be ultrasensitive and defensive, so those around them don’t want to say anything lest they “set them off”. Or maybe you’re doing a good job hiding it, and they just don’t see it as being a problem. Or maybe they’re just absorbed with their own problems, possibly their own mental illnesses, and they’re silently hoping that your problem will pass on its own.
The only person who can help you, IMHO, is a good psychologist. Someone who you like, who you can talk to easily, and who will NOT push drugs on you right away. Drugs can be a life-saver, but they need to be prescribed thoughtfully. The drugs I was prescribed last year were so bad that they turned me off of drugs all together…and meanwhile I got sicker and sicker. It’s just like having untreated diabetes. It can get so bad that your whole body is messed up.
And this is why I refuse to believe that mental illness is a moral failing or some attention-getting scheme. I know I have a good head on my shoulders, I’ve lived a squeaky clean life and made all the right choices. It just goes to show that no one’s immune to wacky brain chemistry. The first step in healing is to accept that it’s 100% real.
If the “root” is getting to you, don’t go to psychoanalyst. Cognitive behavioral therapy deals with the here and now and what are you going to do tomorrow. Maybe that’s what you need.
One thing I’ve learned is that the therapist isn’t going to be doing most of the work. You are. If you expect them to get to the root of your problems and tell you what you’re doing wrong, you’ll be disappointed because it really doesn’t work that way.
There’s a chance therapy won’t work. There’s a chance it will work but it will take months, maybe years–and by that point you might have gotten better all on your own. But what’s the alternative? Ranting on message boards?
Therapy must work for some people, since there’s so many psychiatrists and psychologists out there. I say go to a therapist (not a psychiatrist) and let them listen to you for awhile. At least then your opinions about therapy will be informed.
Sure, but different people can experience the same external stressor, and not all of them will experience depression as a result, or the same level of depression, right?
By organic, you mean biological, right? I think that there are individual differences in biology. So, as above, some people appear more prone to respond to stressors with depression than others.
I think that it’s not really possible, or really useful to consider these different possible causes as independent, but rather interactive. For instance, again, two people might experience the same stressor, but might interpret it in different ways, one depressogenic and the other not. I wouldn’t rule out different intervention strategies because of a categorical model.
If you believe in cognitive therapy, then find yourself a good cognitive therapist. He can teach you skills to deal with your depression and possibly rid yourself of it. There’s a great deal to be said for cognitive psychology, but in my case that didn’t happen to be my problem. You are a unique individual and your depression wouldn’t necessarily have the same cause and treatment as mine.
Well if you don’t go, it’s guaranteed not to work.
What Panache said.
mwelch, please look at what you’re saying. You’re scared that something won’t work, so you won’t try it. This is like not going to the dentist because you have toothache.
When my beloved parents both died within a month, I got grief therapy. My first ever therapy (I was aged 53). It helped me enormously.
I learned about my moods and my behaviour - because other people had gone through the same thing as me.
And I had someone to talk to. Who understood and had time to listen.
Right. Of course. But isn’t it still important to recognize on what level that stressor is happening?
Yes. Thanks for the proper term.
Agreed, and I can think of several examples without working up much of a sweat. I can see the use of dealing with environmental stresses with a cognitive approach. That happens all the time. It’s called therapy. I can see the use of dealing with cognitive stresses with an environmental approach. That’s called vacation. And unfortunately, a lot of people deal with both environmental and cognitive stresses with a biological approach. That’s called alcohol.
But I can see the use of first identifying the system that’s the source of the stress and trying to deal with it on that level first.
In my younger and more foolish days, I suffered from a lot of depression. The problem was most definitely on the cognitive level. I burned huge amounts of energy blaming it on the environmental level (“The world sucks, man.”) And I burned huge amounts of money and health trying to solve it on a biological level, self-medicating from bottles and cans. Needless to say, that approach didn’t get me very far.
Thirded. You can’t win if you don’t play.
Your attempts so far haven’t yielded positive results. You might take that as a sign that you should try a different approach.
Sure, if we could. I don’t think we can, and I don’t think it would be so clear cut. Again, I think we vary along a dimension of biological disposition, which will directly influence our mood and the way we think and interpret events. Also, the way we interpret events will influence our mood and our behavior.
Oh, organic isn’t improper. I was just trying to make sure we were on the same page. Your model is a bit like the old model of endogenous (organic,biological) versus reactive depression. Was it an older psychiatrist, or a European one, or both, who described it to you?
Well, that’s a bit sardonic and dark and discrete a description for my tastes. I prefer using a simple model of emotions, cognitions and behavior all being reciprocally influential on one another. It’s very cognitive-behaviorally influenced, but it has explanatory power and also describes several potential points of intervention. It also requires (or offers) no etiological explanation.
So, how do you know whether something is organic and not reactive or cognitive? Is organic or reactive independent from severity?
I’m glad you have an approach and a model that works for you. I think many people employ drugs and alcohol, independent of whether their depression is endogenous or reactive, and rarely to good outcomes, because of the costly side effects. But many people also benefit from treatments using medication. I don’t want to see anyone turn away from a treatment that may be valuable because they think their depression is of one type or another. Just like the head injured person can benefit from behavioral interventions and by learning cognitive devices, the “organically” depressed person should also rid themselves of assholes, explore behaviors such as exercise, organizational stategies, etc., and consider ways to change how they think about things that might reduce their depression.
I don’t see it as all that complex. Sure, it may take years of work to sort it out, but I think it’s ultimately sortable. But I get your point that such things may be many-layered and the layers can blend into and influence each other.
Younger than me and living in Denver. Granted, a lot of more traditional psychologists/psychiatrists may think that this guy is a little woo woo/new age/pop, but his stuff speaks to me in a very direct way and has the ring of truth. And one doesn’t need a Ph. D. to grasp his ideas.
So much for my attempt at humor!
Of course. But isn’t there still a primary cause, with everything else being sort of a symptom?
I suppose they consult with people like you. Isn’t that the kind of thing you can figure out, given enough time with a patient?
Of course. And I get your point that sometimes treatment at a different level can be hugely beneficial.
In fact, I can think of a situation that illustrates that exactly.
My ex has been on antidepressants for several years. On the surface, that would seem like a biological treatment for a biological problem. But the real problem was cognitive. Her thought processes were screwed up. Why? Because of environmental issues. Her marriage (no, not to me!) was in complete disarray. It was killing her. Years of therapy and pills have done her a world of good. But step one was to deal with her environmental issues, i.e. get a divorce. If she hadn’t done that, none of the rest of it would have done much good.
mwelsh, it occurred to me that your posts may be implying that you think that the effect of medication will be to “paper over” the problems you actually have, and to make you feel an unearned and undeserved happiness (“living on mars”) instead of actually dealing with the underlying issues (“living on earth”).
Certainly if someone just decides to give you medication without addressing the emotional issues, and/or if the root causes of your problems are external rather than chemical, that will be the case. On the other hand, I can attest that if you DO have a chemical imbalance of some sort, the result will not be that you go around happy-punch-drunk. The result is more that you are able to deal with problems that seemed unsurmountable when you were in a pit of “oh my gosh life is crushing me.”
But it’s not clear that’s your problem, as you cite root causes that are not biological. I would highly recommend, as others have, cognitive behavioral therapy – this is what really helped my friend who was suffering from depression from her life situation (although she did take a VERY low dose of medication for a very short while, because she had gotten her blood chemistry all out of whack. The mind/body interface is a very odd thing.)
As a sufferer of bi-polar, anxiety and clinical depression I can tell you in no uncertain terms that you have a misinformed opinion about these disoders. There are some unfortunates like those with schizophrenia who have really messed up brain chemistry and the only hope they have is meds. There are people who get just therapy for things like grief or a depression from a divorce. Therapy can get them through the rough spots and then they can go on about their lives. The third group is people who do have some brain chemistry problems and seek out a combo of meds and therapy. Trust me, zoloft, paxil, etc. are not placeobos. If you don’t believe me, try one of them for 30 days. When you start taking them there can be very pronounced and uncomfortable side effects that you have to work through. One of the major ones is your sex drive. You will not think it is a placebo when you can’t get it up or cum for the first 30 to 40 days.
What meds do is smooth out the anxiety/depression so that it goes back within the normal parameters that most people live with. Everybody gets anxious and ‘bummed out’ from time-to-time but it is a temporary thing that will pass. Things like depression from a breakup or being really anxious about finances, etc. Some people can benefit from the combo of meds/therapy and work through their stuff and then get off the meds.
Dealing with brain chemistry and emotional states is definetley not an exact science but it getting better.
If therapy doesn’t work than I’m back to step one of figuring it out on my own. I’ve been through this whole internet about my depression. I know this sounds dumb but I feel like I’m giving up if I go to therapy or that I’m not a man… <— I can’t even tell you if that’s how I really feel. I don’t understand my emotions or and I don’t see them even though they are dead obvious to everyone else. The same goes for my actions. Which is why I think weed helps, when high, my awareness skyrockets. I am pretty sure it isn’t a chemical imbalance.
There were a few events that have caused my depression. How would telling someone these events get me back to normal? I have bought two books on CBT, it caught my attention the most but after reading them, it just wouldn’t work out. If I could just raise my awareness and clear my mind, I will be good to go. I see my mind as an acre of tangled cords, unorganized.
It may break your heart to learn this, but you may never be “normal”. Lots of us have made this discovery about ourselves, so we go to therapy not to find a cure but to learn how to cope and stop beating ourselves up. Therapy can help you recognize your limitations, but it can also teach you have to use your quirks to your benefit. A therapist who understands your particular disorder, for instance, may help you find an activity besides smoking weed that makes you feel human. They may also discover that you’re suffering from something in addition to depression that might explain why your pain seems to be so deeply entrenched. That kind of information can be healing in itself.
Forgive me if this sounds cruel, but it almost sounds like you’ve got depression woven into the very fabric of your personality…like you don’t want to be fixed because you’re afraid you won’t be you. Lemme tell you, at 19 you don’t really know who you are yet anyway. I sound like a mean old foggie saying that, but it’s true. Perhaps a good therapist might lift up that curtain you’re hiding behind and you’d discover someone who, while quirky and complex, is likeable, creative, and normal. Are you afraid that you might turn out to be like everyone else? Don’t fall for the lie that depression makes you wiser and more sensitive. You can be these things and still be well.
Last bit of advice. Stop consulting the internet for mental illness info. You’ll be quickly convinced that you’re suffering from everything from autism to Huntington’s Chorea that way. If you know you’re depressed, go get real-live, face-to-face help. And stop smoking so much. It may make you feel better temporarily, but it can exacerbate some symptoms (low motivation, hallucinations, paranoia, etc.) that can make you feel worse.
Please do something. The hopelessness in your posts is sad.
You’ll never know if you don’t try. And you can’t keep telling yourself, “well, it probably won’t work, and anyways, it means I’ll be a failure.” Because that’s just not true. If you go in with that attitude, it won’t work. (Self-fulfilling prophecy and all that.)
You remind me of me when I was first diagnosed. I was constantly trying to cure myself by reading about stuff online…which only fed into my obsession. It’s only going to make it worse.
And for the third time, please, lay off the weed! It’s obviously making things worse. (God, I hate sounding like Nancy Reagan!) Seriously, you seem to be using it as a means of escape. Good luck. Seriously, depression is awful. For me it was like being in boiled in oil.
Wait so you don’t think a chemical imbalance can cause depression? So when I took E it made my serotonin levels go way way up and put me in a great mood and very happy. You don’t things work the other way? You don’t think lacking certain peptides can make you sad? I disagree. I am someone who lives with clinical depression and their is no way in hell you know how I feel on a day to day basis. I taking sleeping pills on the nights that I do not want to cry my self to sleep. Sure there are certain things that make me sad, my job for example. I had depression long before I had my current job. I actually got this job to try and change my environment and to be a happier person, no joy. The grass is not always greener on the other side. Until you are driving you car and start to cry for no reason (like I did a few hours ago) you have no clue what depression is like. It hurts you entire body and mind. It is not a made up disease. Weed is the only thing that I have found that works.
I think you have actually answered your own question on how telling a third-party trained professional might help.
Other comments on your post:
If you could read books and apply CBT to yourself, there wouldn’t be a job for therapists. I have tried to do all sorts of things myself by reading books, from jewelry making to math to physical therapy, and the common factor between all these things is that I could make a little headway on my own, but I was mostly flailing around in the dark until I got a trained professional to help. When it’s your own body/mind, of course, it’s that much harder to figure out.
You may be back to square one if the therapy doesn’t work, but if you never go you’re at square one already, right?
Also, I know what you mean (if you do mean it) about not feeling like a man if you have to go to therapy. Only for crazy people, right? But you have to get past that and decide that your happiness is more important than your pride. Which it is. Really.
This matter is not black and white. There is no direct correlation between people who go in and get a fake diagnosis and people with a real brain chemical imbalance, which is why this has sparked some controversy.
I'd like to say, that many things in the exterior world DO have effects on your brain chemicals. You naturally go into these states of depression and submission as, like any human phenomenon, a defense mechanism. In my OPINION, Depression is very real, however, Bi-polar dis-order is a very mixed in-put.
Bi-polar, unlike depression, is almost a natural occurrence. If you put it this way, everyone is happy some weeks and sad other weeks due to certain problems. On a personal level, I was diagnosed with Bi-Polar disorder at 17, but do I believe in it?
I would be stupid not to, however no one has scanned my brain and shown me my chemical imbalance. If you were to ask me how I felt right now, I'd say perfectly dandy.Since you’re already a believer in Cognitive Therapy . . . look at some of the statements that you believe, that you might examine, like:
*If I go to therapy, it means I’m giving up.
If I go to therapy, it means I’m not a man.
Talking to a therapist is pointless.
Therapy wouldn’t work out.
My awareness needs to be raised.
My mind is disorganized.
*These are exactly the kind of statements that a good cognitive therapist can help you with. But of course that won’t happen if you just sit at home whining about everything.
I’m not dropping tears or anything. I won’t feel sorry for myself either and I know it can’t be that big of a deal, I may be depressed because I didn’t get my way…
Here’s my story, no one has to read it. I will try to keep it short. This is what happened to cause my depression. Let me tell you one thing about myself I am aware of. I never think about the things happening to me and I don’t think before I act. If anyone believes in the subconscious, I tend to let it do all the thinking for me. (Not on purpose, and not when I’m high). When I’m learning, the only thinking I do is determine whether what I’m learning is fact or false. If I choose to believe it, it goes to the subconscious.
Growing up, I never wanted more than 3 friends. If you weren’t in my top 3, then you would just be an associate. You might call me introverted or whatever. I grew up in the same house as my mom, 3 sisters, moms boyfriend, and grandma. Grandma stayed in the basement and disliked my mom for some reason, fighting and arguing all the time… Separation issues also, my grandma brainwashed… And thats enough about the family issues, even though that situation gets worse, that was my childhood… I was happy as a child doing my own thing. I was raised to believe this world was perfect, big surprises ahead of me…
**
Girlfriend**
Moved from old neighborhood at 12 and had to replace my 3 friends (not how I looked at it). Started off with my first real lady friend. I screwed up big time with her. She seemed very special to me and I treated her special. Well growing up with all girls, I ended up treating her with the wrong type of special… She subconsciously took advantage of me in every aspect. Look up “nice guys finish last”. I treated her the way I would want my sisters to be treated…
The pain: treating her like a queen and in return… you don’t want to know.
Brotherly friend
My oldest sister found a boyfriend. He was a few years older than me. He lived what some may recognize as a street life, meaning he had to grow up quick to survive. He was also an alpha male (anyone believe in that?), so me having no dad, chose him to guide me. He became my big brother… Well, the problem became my sister. She was and still is a spoiled brat (first born). He couldn’t deal with her but I didn’t want her hurt. She made me feel bad for hanging out with him after they broke up yet she still chased him. To end now, I separated from both of em.
The pain: Losing everything he taught me…
Best friend
We were closer than whatever. He had a 2 year younger little brother who was cool. The younger one started hitting growing pains and would start acting cocky towards me, he also had a girlfriend who was my age. I ended up taking her right out of his house in the same room as him. He broke out in tears, punching walls, suicidal thoughts, whatever… Well his brother (the close one) end up coming after me, talking about fighting or whatever… I would not fight him though and was in shock he came to me that way. I ended up feeling like it was my fault and left the girl to return to him. They still accept me as the same person but I won’t accept them.
The pain: him trying to fight me (i guess)
One more thing, the brother-friend and best friend started hanging out. I didn’t know how to be around them together. I treated the brother-friend as my brother and the best friend as my best friend. I ended being very uncomfortable as I seemed fake around the both of them.
All this happened around the same year, and after all that, I became very self-conscious (not aware). I dunno though, I try not to care about none of it as it isn’t that big of a deal. I recognize the pain from the lady the most… I would love to cause her pain but I’m hardly a bad person.
DANG, this is a long post… Thanks for reading