It was the only true thing in that rant. I’m currently on “5 reasons to punch a dolphin in the nose” 
Fuckin’ sign O’ the Ayn Damned Apocalypse! I agree with RR and Oakminister. Prepare for tribulations, the rapture is nigh. But wait! It comes at the expense of allowing the idiot masses to do what they want and suffer the invisible hand of consequences of increased risk!
I think home birth is a stupid idea, and the thought of the safety of the child being “primary” gives a whole new definition to the word primary. No, if you are having home birth, it is either to save money or because you are having “an experience”. It is not safer for either the mother or the child. Here safety is coming after saving money and “an experience”, so it isn’t primary, but secondary at best and probably tertiary. The justifications about “safety is primary” sound like the Dad to be is lying to himself and everyone else involved because he clearly doesn’t understand the concept of safety or primary.
That said, I can’t really get behind the state interfering with this kind of decision as it usually works out just fine. That and you cannot fix stupid. You can’t, can you?
Except that your midwife is a fucking moron who thinks that leaving a baby deprived of oxygen for 4 hours counts as a “successful” birth because nobody went to a hospital.
The fact that you’re a pothead explains so much.
It was his attitude about the other poster’s home birth experience (and poor choices) that bothered me the most. Like. ‘Well, the baby didn’t die, so thanks for supporting my claim!’
Nevermind the child almost died and went through unnecessary trauma due to their stupidity.
[Moderating]
Pit him if you want, but don’t call him a motherfucker.
No warning issued.
[/Moderating]
I agree; the attitude is based on utter ignorance of human history.
Look: mothers and babies are *supposed *to die during childbirth. Dying horribly is perfectly normal, historically speaking. The fact that very few currently do is almost exclusively because of hospitals.
Fuck me, a thread where I agree with Rand Rover and Dio.
That alone should tell you how utterly retarded it is to risk the life of your wife and child for no reason.
Quoting from the OP, because I dont want to read a babby thread
Phlosphr, you really sound like a fucking idiot. Sounds to me like your list of priorities reads life experience first and babys well-being second. That would make you a shitty parent.
Try putting your babys health ahead of EVERYTHING ELSE and see if that changes your decision.
Indeed. I hesitated to post here for that reason. Ah, well.
As I’ve mentioned in other threads, if my wife had given birth to her first son at home, he would have died. There was no indication whatsoever of any problem during the pregnancy. Within minutes of his birth, his lungs both collapsed. Within days, he had open heart surgery. Yes, I know the odds of that happening are small. But I can tell you that these cases do happen. Humanity invented medicine for very very good reasons.
Anyway, I doubt I’ll return to this thread, because I have a hard time believing any good will come of it, but there’s my perspective for what it’s worth.
On one hand, I’d never opt for a home birth (and I am currently pregnant, so this is relevant right now!). All other things aside, I am too indifferent a housekeeper to keep my house “company ready” for weeks and weeks. And having to do the cleanup afterwards? No way.
More seriously, it’s not a risk I am willing to take. The payoff doesn’t seem worth it.
That said, the OMG THINK OF THE BABY argument is a little disingenuous. People take slight risks with their child’s safety for the sake of experience all the time. If someone thinks having a tree house, or playing football, or sledding, or getting anywhere near a swimming pool, or visiting the Grand Canyon, or taking non-essential car trips, or anything else, it’s not considered irresponsible. If someone believes that being born at home is a better experience for the baby, because they bond better or feel more secure or whatever, I don’t see that as any different. I may disagree with that decision, but honestly, I disagree with the decision to let boys play football–but you won’t see me calling (or thinking) that people who do are bad parents.
Where I DO think Phlosphr is being kind of a passive aggressive asshole is when he keeps saying he is completely non-judgmental about other people’s choices and he totally agrees that it’s a good choice for a lot of people, but then he also says he thinks there is some sort of spiritual bonding that can only happen then. I mean, it doesn’t make sense to say 'FOR US, we will never really be bonded with our baby in the same way if we don’t have a home birth, but I am sure it makes NO DIFFERENCE for those other people". That’s just not logically consistent. For him to put the importance he does on home birth, he must, on some level, think that adopted people, preeemies separated from their mothers for days or weeks, or other children born in ways that prevented “hormones” and “bonding” pay a permanent spiritual toll. If that’s how he feels, he should admit it.
It also bothers me that he thought a “stillbirth” was a baby that was born “gray and floppy” but not dead and he KEEPS saying that if things go bad, he will be content to “go to the birthing center” when everyone keeps telling him “NO, if things go bad, you will go to the HOSPITAL because the birthing center can’t handle much you can’t handle at home”. He just keeps ignoring that point. Both these things make me wonder about the depth of his research: how many articles did he read thinking the “stillbirths” they talked about were ok in the end, and that deaths weren’t mentioned? And I can’t see reading any material on birthing centers that didn’t emphasize that they transport you FROM the birthing center in the case of emergency.
The more I think about home birth, the more against it I become. Two of the most hazardous undertakings people normally engage in are being born and giving birth. As much as we rag on “old style” birthings, long hospital stays, many interventions, etc., these were folks who were fighting against tragically high death rates. I can’t fault them for throwing the kitchen sink at the problem, trying to ensure their patients both survive.
Today, with death rates significantly lower, we start to think it’s no big deal and prefer to have a “memorable” “comfortable” birth rather than a “safe” one. Show me a well constructed study that says home birth is safer than hospital/birthing center birth, and I’ll consider home birth a viable alternative.
Oh my god…
I was curious to see what the hubbub was about in the OT and I could barely even get through the first post.
What a ringing endorsement for homebirth.
Well, at least she’s redundant when it comes to being obvious. Of course, won’t an emergency room trip interfere with your spirituality? Why not just enjoy what fate has cast for you and if the baby was meant to be, then it will be? I think you might anger the gods or chakras or the dreamcatcher with the incense might get spoilt if you try and rush out of the room! Better safe than sorry I say, just stay put and more often than not, it should be fine.
Ya know, those evil doctors WANT you to have insurance. Why are you playing into their hand? I’ve heard echinacea should just do the trick for everything based on some pamphlet I read once.
Yeah. All of em. Plus it’d be really dumb to try and induce labor when this should all happen naturally. Extended labor has no risks to the infant or the mother.
Oh.
Yeah, I too hate being scared by things like facts. Ooogah boogah! <<shudder>>
Re: me being a dick in that thread: usually when I act like a dick it’s just because, well, I’m kind of a dick. But this time the dickish stuff was a calculated part of a shock and awe campaign. I was hoping phlosphr would decide that he was gonna post some cites to show me I was wrong, and doing that research would cause him to discover that I’m right. Didn’t really work out though.
Also, I’ll confess to getting a bit emotional over this issue. I’m a grown-ass man and I freaking love babies, especially my own–I don’t understand how a father could do anything other than the best possible thing for their kid. I actually had a dream one night after posting in that thread that I ran downstairs and (somewhat disturbing)
pulled a baby out of my oven right before someone was about to roast it
Also, sorry about “motherfucker,” I thought that one was OK.
Yeah, that made me double-take, too.
Wanting a hippy, spiritual experience is all fine and good. But the baby’s health should be put ahead of the parent’s desire for a certain type of birth. What about having the midwife in the delivery room of the hospital? Is that possible?
on this topic out of all of them, i’d have thought if ever the insult was technically valid… 
What struck me in that thread was how much RR, who is normally of the opinion that other people having any impact on the choices he makes with his money should be a criminal offense, feels like other people shouldn’t have the right to make decisions with their own bodies and medical care. It just struck me as so odd that someone who feels like being taxed so that children can get a decent public education or have a safe park to play in is a pox on him feels like someone else making a decision about their health and their child that he doesn’t agree with shouldn’t be allowed.
That being said, I don’t think the home birth is a fabulous idea and I would never do it, but it isn’t like he wants to feed his newborn baby nothing but vegetable broth or bind their feet or anything, they simply want to have a home birth with an ambulance standing by. It wouldn’t be my choice but it isn’t something I feel should be made illegal either.
I’ll repost what I just posted in the other thread in case it gets lost in the sauce…
Now, to be sure, we definitely had our stuff together and took precautions and she was in a good place, health-wise, to make this a reasonable choice. And we have a perfectly healthy 6 year old daughter to show for it. I’m not going to say it’s for everyone, and I don’t think I’d recommend it for first-time moms, but making some big scary bugaboo about it is pretty unreasonable.
You were fortunate, that’s all. There were no complications.
Incidentally, what is the advantage of a midwife over a nurse or a doctor or any other real kind of real medical professional?