Pbbth (and the other couple of nutters who posted suimilarly), if you put together an actual argument that I’m being a hypocrite (or whatever), then I will respond. Until then I’ll just call your assertions and implications the absolute mindless drivel that they are.
You had TWO complication free labors at home.
I have a friend who gave birth four times. The first time she was expecting what everyone expects - a long first labor in the 12-20 hours category. They waited at home, not long, and barely made it through the hospital door before giving birth. Easy, too. No medication, no pain. This woman was bred to breed.
The second one they headed to the hospital on the first contraction - and barely made it through the door before the baby was out - easy as the first.
The third they called and ambulance at the first contraction - and the baby was delivered by EMT on the road.
The forth they did homebirth. Why fight it? Four kids, she’s never seen the labor and delivery suite.
On the other hand, another friend.
Her first was born by emergency c-section - she really wanted a natural childbirth, but had one of those “baby delivered five minutes after they decided to cut” cases. No risk factors.
Her second she wanted to do VBAC. And the baby was delivered five minutes after they decided to cut in an emergency c-section. Only risk factor was the first emergency c-section.
The third her OB said “lets just schedule you.”
Dio, the advantage boils down to rainbows and unicorns. And bunnies, super-fluffy ones.
You know, I haven’t read the other thread, but there are plenty of midwives out there who have “actual qualifications”. A good friend of mine, for instance, has a BSN, MSN, and 15+ years of experience dealing with labor, childbirth, and women’s health issues She has passed some really hardcore certification/licensing exams and is now a Certified Nurse-Midwife. She’s participated in more births than the vast majority of new docs out there. So how, exactly, is she not a “real medical professional”?
Incidentally, she favors home births in appropriate circumstances and is seriously considering a move to Canada, where home birth is accepted practice.
That’s a really dumb argument. That’s like saying “I have a friend who is a cashier at Burger King and she just finished her CPA, so she really knows her job well.” The CPA is not a requirement of the job to be a cashier, that friend *just happens *to have qualifications which would help.
My question is what makes a midwife better than a nurse? As far a I’m concerned, being a “certified midwife” is about as impressive as being a certified shaman. What does a midwife know that a nurse doesn’t know, or that a doctor doesn’t know better? How to cook placentas? If a midwife also happens to have a nursing certification, then they are just midwifes who also happen to be incidentally qualified medical professional. What is it specifically about midwifery that makes them better than doctors or nurses, though?
Also, what could possibly be the advantage of cutting yourself off from a full range of immediate medical options during a delivery? Why would a qualified medical professional advise something so irresponsible?
Read the freaking link. Certified nurse midwives ARE nurses. Graduate-educated ones. I never said they were better or worse. I am not passing judgment on home birth, just stating that people who are far better informed than I don’t think it’s crazy. If and when I am ever pregnant (which I don’t plan on ever doing), I will research it myself.
A certified nurse midwife IS a nurse. He (yes, there are he midwives - my OB teacher is one) or she is a Registered Nurse with a Master’s Degree and advanced practice certification in Midwifery.
You know the Nurse Practitioners who are running the walk-in clinics at Walgreens and CVS these days? Same thing, only specializing in obstetrics, instead of Family Practice.
ETA: In most states, lay midwifery - being a midwife who is not a CNM - is illegal.
Is there a difference between a midwife and a nurse midwife?
If all midwives are nurses, then what is the point of the “midwife” part? What is the difference between a regular nurse and a nurse midwife?
Some midwives are nurse midwives. Certified nurse midwives, as explained in the link, are graduate trained in nursing and have to pass rigorous licensing and certification exams. As I mentioned, I have not read the other thread and have no comment on the specific choices discussed therein. I just wanted to point out that there are people other than doctors who are specifically highly trained to deal with labor and childbirth issues.
Ok, so what is the point of adding the “midwife” partt if they’re already real nurses. Wouldn’t they inspire more confidence if they dropped the nutty appendage to thir titles and just called themselves nurses? The word “midwife” puts me in mind of witches grinding herbs.
To indicate the obstetrics specialty, is my guess.
I think the biggest issue some of us have with Philosphr’s plan is that the logic he’s using doesn’t seem sound, and when he makes arguments he tends to go off on a tangent that maybe sounds a bit like it’s answering the argument, but it’s really not.
Like when I asked him if there’s scientific evidence that the hormones/chemical cocktail he’s talking about really promotes some mystical bond that other mothers don’t have with their children. He said his wife read something about it, and that he just is amazed at how much he loves the kid even though it’s not born yet. Which…yeah, that’s what happens when people have children, they tend to feel overwhelming love of a kind they’ve never felt before. That doesn’t answer the question of whether or not there’s any evidence at all that birth hormones create an extra level of bonding that otherwise wouldn’t exist, or whether there’s any way to quantify that at all.
And the issue of the birth center…he keeps saying that the birth center is fine, if they have to transfer there, that will be great. He’s talking about if they make the decision with the midwife that they are too high risk, and never attempt homebirth at all, that’s the kind of “transfer” he’s talking about. He’s not even thinking about EMERGENCY transfers, other than the fact that they’re making firefighters stand by to help them if anything goes wrong, and not thinking about the timing involved…how long will it take the emergency personnel to get her to the hospital if the baby’s deprived of oxygen. 10 minutes? Doesn’t seem like much, but would any of us like to be deprived of oxygen for 10 minutes? I’m not gonna volunteer for that, that’s for sure.
And he doesn’t address the fact that the immediate transfer means you go to the hospital, not the birthing center.
And he doesn’t address the fact that it’s kind of terrifying that his midwife thinks that babies stuck in the birth canal for 4 hours and are born grey and floppy are just fine because you can just resuscitate them.
The truth is, his wife hates hospitals and she doesn’t want to go there. Which…I totally understand that, but you have to be honest with yourself when there’s confirmation bias going on. Not because I think homebirth is the dumbest move in the world, but because you have to be sure you understand the concept of a TRUE EMERGENCY in childbirth, and not let your midwife tell you that once the baby’s coming there won’t be any reason to have to transfer.
Precisely. I think the twitchiness about nomenclature is **Dio’s **own issue, personally, and he needs to educate himself on the nomenclature. Having previously had, for example, a nurse-practitioner as my primary gyn practitioner in the past, I have to say that she was at least as knowledgeable as the M.D.s I have had as primary gyn practitioners at other times, and I have no issue with having nurses/other mid-level medical practitioners as my primary contact.
What’s the difference betwen an obstetric nurse and a nurse midwife?
You know who believes in homebirths in pursuit of deep spiritual connections between mother and child, and promotes it heavily?
Scientoligists, that’s who. Save your breath, he already drank the koolaid. Save your efforts for those who can still hear.
Oh, and say a little prayer for the wife and child, they may well need it.
I think this is it. Everything else is just ad hoc rationalization. I think phlosphr means well and wants to do right by his wife, but really, this appears to be about them convincing themselves that they don’t need a hospital first, and letting confirmation bias inform their research.
Word to phlosphr, My wife has had three kids in the hopsital (the way God intended), and that mother-child bond was still just as powerful as it could have been every time. So was the father-child bond, and the husband-wife bond.
We never had a bad exprience with a doctor or nurse, by the way. The nurses, in particular, were extremely sensitive, efficient, informative, kind and friendly.
A regular nurse has only a moderate amount of training in the nursing diagnoses and interventions common to prenatal care, labor and delivery. I can probably tell you if a baby is head up or head down. I can tell you how far dilated you are (well, I can’t, personally, because I haven’t had enough practice yet, but that’s on-the-job training, not nursing school training. But legally, that’s within my scope of practice.) I can listen for fetal heart tones. I can calculate the drip rate for pitocin or mag sulfate or other drugs if a midwife or doctor orders them. I can apply fetal monitors and read the tracings to tell you if it looks like the fetus is in distress. I know what to do if there’s a cord prolapse or the mom starts gushing blood or has trouble breathing. I know how to resuscitate an infant. I can provide emotional and nursing support during labor, delivery and afterwards. But that’s really about it. I can anticipate when a midwife or doctor is likely to order meds, but I can’t order them myself. I can administer them, but I don’t have the training or legal ability to prescribe anything. I am not trained in risk assessment or determining if a particular pregnancy is high or low risk. I have very little training in the common medical complications of pregnancy or how to manage them. (I cannot do medical diagnoses, only nursing diagnoses. Learning the difference between the two takes up most of the first year of nursing school.)
As I said in the other thread, a CNM can prescribe and administer many drugs, in a home or hospital setting. He or she can perform an episiotomy and place sutures to repair an episiotomy or tears. He or she is trained in pregnancy and childbirth much more than I am, and can do any intervention an OB can, short of a c-section. (Epidurals can be ordered by but are not placed by either OB’s or CNM’s; anesthesiologists do the actual placement of the epidural.)
Because midwifery is what they do. Why should they care what your ignorance thinks?
An obstetrics nurse is an RN who works in OB or Labor and Delivery. She does everything I wrote in the “what I can do” section. They are not qualified to attend a birth unassisted.
Ummm, did you miss the part where I mentioned she has 15 years of experience handling labor and delivery?
Why not drop “nurse”, too, then? They could call themselves “Medical technical specialist category 337-Alpha”.