Pitting kids and the parents who accept them behaving like asshats in public

I took my daughter to the Franklin Institute on Monday. Some school groups were there, yet no one seemed to be in charge. Suffice to say that drunken sailors on a three day pass are better behaved.

These little fuckers were pounding on everything in sight, like the place was Six Flags, not a place of learning. Forget the concept of ‘inside voices’-I’ve been to World Series games which were more sedate. The teachers *shouted * at the kids. :eek: I literally had to bend down at times to hear my daughter over the din.

I guess I’m officially an old fucker, as teachers didn’t shout when I went to school-they grabbed your ass and you were dragged out of the place if you misbehaved. When an adult lowered their voice it was a clear sign that you were in serious trouble. The sort of nonsense I witnessed was unthinkable in the past.

My daughter isn’t an angel, but she generally comports herself well. Are basic social graces by children a lost expectation?

If those were school groups, why are you pitting the parents, who one assumes aren’t there?

Because the parents are the ones that are supposed to raise the children. Not the teachers.

In my neck of the woods, there are some parents who apparently think the public library is a free babysitting service. It’s not unusual to be startled in the stacks by kids playing tag. The librarians are forced to try to rein in the little heathens, since there are never any parents in evidence, but their success is limited at best.

That ignores the possibility that these particular kids are well-behaved around their parents, and only run wild when subject to a disciplinary approach different from their parents’.

Not that I’m saying that is necessarally the case, but to assume it’s the parents’ fault, when there are no parents around, is a bit reaching, it seems to me. Like danceswithcats’ belief that her daughter is well-behaved when away from her, it’s still just an assumption. It’s probably true, but without additional data, it’s not a fact.

I’m saying that there should be parents around. You shouldn’t just drop your kids off at the library and go shopping.

And beyond that, running around wild is not bad behavior. It’s what kids do. It only becomes bad behavior in context…ie in a museum and not a playground. If they’re getting signals from the authority figure present that this is ok, then they’re not behaving badly, they’re behaving like kids. Kids don’t know what’s appropriate yet, that’s why they need authority figures.

Or to put it another way, I’d blame the teacher but not the parents.

Do you really believe this? This sounds almost like a parody of Grumpy Old Coot to me. Of course there have always been teachers who yelled at their kids, old coots who imagined that in their youth such teachers didn’t exist, and teachers who spoke quietly to their kids as a way of communicating seriousness. It’s pretty likely that all three categories will continue to exist indefinitely.

I was observing a classroom all fall where the teacher was so quiet that I thought she wasn’t getting enough sleep at first: she seemed almost asleep on her feet. The more I observed her class, however, the more I realized that she used her extremely quiet and calm demeanor as a classroom control technique: it really calmed the kids down a lot. I was very impressed.

Some teachers know what they’re doing, and some don’t. That’s how it’s been for millennia.

Daniel

So true.

Oh, and Dung Beetle, I was replying to Harbourwolf, and I agree with you about parents at the public library.

And I’m sure they are understaffed which makes it even harder to enforce any guidelines. Don’t get me started. I’ve worked retail for years and this is a pet peeve of mine. I think kids need less excuses “well they’re just kids” and more guidelines.
Kicking them out after the second time of being spoken to sounds good to me. If you’re not there to do library stuff then don’t be there to interfere with those who are. Parents who don’t like it should be told that the Library is not a baby sitting service. If your child cannot behave without you here then you need to be here or your child should not be here.

I think a big part of the problem is that too many kids aren’t taught to respect other people or property that isn’t theirs. Guess what parents. Parents get upset when we have to speak to their kids in the store and yet they don’t expect to be charged for anything their kid damages. If your kid is misbehaving and a stranger cortrects them in a reasonable manner then don’t get bent out of shape. Thank that stranger and remind your child to behave.

I work in a music atore and we are constantly {especially this time of year} reminding kids not to play with exspensive gear. One man got all huffy when his son was told not to play with a $2800 banjo. Kids look at me like , “you’re not my parent so I don’t have to listen to you” which on some level I can appreciate. We don’t want kids obeying every adult who speaks to them. However, if you have kids and they go out with you it is your job as a parent to teach them that merchandise in the store is not public property and they should not touch unless they politely ask and are given specific permission.

If you take your kids to the Library it’s your job to teach them that it is for quiet reading and looking **only
** That way neither the kids or parents will be surprised or offended when they get kicked out. All part of the village raising the child.

True. I think what the OP was refering to was that in days gone by if a child got to out of hand the teacher could physically put them in their seat. I’ve heard several kids say they act out because they know the teacher can’t really do anything about it. It’s not PC or even legal now for a teacher to use physical discipline. I don’t think thats a bad thing but teachers must have effective ways to discipline. At least a part of that is parents teaching kids respect for other adults. Parents who let their kids run over them at home and in public are not likely to do that.

That’s a good point. I do wonder, though, whether kids are rowdier today than they were in the past, on average. Personally I’d be a little surprised if they were: schools have really cracked down on many behaviors that in the past were excused with a “kids will be kids” attitude, and children are drugged into serenity more today than they were in the past.

At the same time, kids today watch a lot more television, which may be reducing their attention span, and may have less face-to-face interaction with adults that can help them learn behavioral norms. So I don’t know whether kids today are rowdier than before or not.

Certainly you’re likelier to notice the rowdiness of kids if you’re not a kid yourself.

Daniel

Depending on the age group social intereaction is a learned behavior. It is up to parents to teach kids to respect the feelings and property of others, as well as respecting other authority figures such as teachers, librarians, or even lowly store clerks. That does take time and effort which varies from child to child. My objection is to parents who won’t make that effort and will still get pissy when someone else makes a request that their child behave in a reasonable manner.

Yeah, I kind of grokked that just after I posted. :smack: I’m going to go back to reading, especially since cosmosdan is doing my ranting better than I can.

The reason the teacher didn’t grab any shouting urchins by the arm and drag them outside for a good reaming out is because if she did, she’d be liable for an assault charge, a civil suit, and a good old fashioned firing.

In my credential program, it was drilled into our heads that you do not touch the kids, unless you’re looking for a real quick way to end your career.

My sons are 1 & 4. Since the 4 y/o has been able to cognitively converse, we have been teaching him please, thank you, may I be excused, cover your mouth when you cough, say “excuse me” if you belch or fart (he does know the word fart though, my mom always made me say “toot”), and just to be polite.

Granted, he’s only in preschool and does his share of toy snatching, whining and all that other kid stuff. My only real problem with him in public is that he forgets to use his “indoor voice”. I have to constantly remind him.

While partial blame may be placed upon the poor control of the teachers, it does boil down to the manners taught at home. If the parents grew up without reinforcement of etiquette, how are they expected to teach their own? And so the cycle continues.

The human race will probably devolve back to the cavemen. Think about it. All the grunts and groans you see from people now, they teach it to their kids. Mark my words.

RSSchenstrodamus

Again, are you serious? I just find it perpetually astonishing that adults can really believe their “kids today” rhetoric. I mean, when teenagers talk about how square their parents are, that I can understand: they’ve not been around long enough to have much in the way of valuable perspective. But you’re a grownup: how can you lack perspective like this?

Daniel

the asshat doesn’t fall far from the hall tree!

Maybe yes, and maybe no. Behavior in large groups may be different from behavior alone and with parents. If even a good kid sees other kids going wild without control, he might also.

dances - how old were these kids? How many were there? Were there other adults along besides the teacher? One teacher for 10 kids is not going to work.

My very first class trip, about 50 years ago, was in kindergarten to a local grocery store. We got good behavior drilled into us by the teachers. I wonder if these kids got prepared. BTW, even in the good old days, I don’t remember any physical force used at any time on any kid. If a teacher is in control, it shouldn’t be necessary. If a teacher is not in control, it isn’t going to help.

Just so you know I’m not a parent loving softie, parents who see their kids misbehave and just shout at them, without doing anything to stop the behavior, are the ones who make me mad. If the first verbal correction does not stop the behavior, stop it physically and then talk.

I’d guess their age to be 10-12, and the quantity was a school bus load, which is ~50 IIRC. The adult to child ratio was roughly 1:10~15.

I do remember a kid getting way out of line, and his little ass was grabbed, he went out and sat on the bus for the duration. That served as a reality check for anyone else who contemplated being a hellion.

Agreed. I included parents in the OP because kids who behave badly in public aren’t being brought up to respect authority figures. Teachers, shopkeepers, et. al. can only offer reinforcement of what should be taught in the home. My parents made it clear that without exception, word of misbehavior would make it’s way back to them and I’d be called to task for my actions.