Pitting my best friend: You're out of control!

The BBQ Pit
21

Damnabbit, I had a nice long post written and the freakin’ hamsters ate it. Ah well.

Morigoon, thank you for the clarifications. Now I can see where you’re coming from a bit better.

As far as the “can’t drink w/o a cigarette” thing goes, that’s normal amongst smokers. You either have to be or have to have been at some point, a smoker to really grasp this. It’s part of the habit and not abnormal at all.

I’ll admit that drinking to get drunk is not a Good Thing. Most people who drink, drink to loosen up and have fun at parties, not for the sheer purpose of getting falling down drunk at parties. Most people would be embarrassed if they engaged in that sort of behavior. When you say that most of your friend’s stories about him include him being drunk, it might not be because he’s drunk all the time, it might be because he doesn’t do anything “story worthy” unless he’s drunk. Whatever the reason is, if you want to help him I’d suggest finding out why he’s drinking like this and attempt to help him with the cause of it. If he’s drinking to escape, which it sounds like he is, he’s got to have a better option available for him to stop. Otherwise, what’s the point? He has to recognize that there truly is a way out, and he has help to find it.

As far as the “keeping his nose clean” comments go, I’m going to have to reserve judgement on that one. I’ve got multiple family members who are coke heads and I coudn’t give an unbaised opinion on that. The stuff is evil. But he’s in NA, which is a start.

As for his sexual behavior, you’ve got to be either highly self destructive or living under a rock to be unaware of the dangers of unprotected sex in this day and age. I’m assuming he’s knowledgeable about the dangers and I feel that’s a pretty safe assumption to make. With all of this in mind, I’m afraid that his sex life is between him and his partner/s. As long as he’s aware of the dangers, it needs to be up to him.

And of course, know when to back off. Don’t let this consume you too.

22

Are you sure Morigoon meant it that way? “Keep your nose clean” is an old-school way of saying “stay out of trouble”. He may just have meant steering clear of all destructive behavior.

23

lmfao! My thoughts exactly.

24

Well, this last weekend was San Diego Pride, and he got drunk of his ass both nights (big surprise there… not)

It’s just… how many “special occasions” can there be in a week?

Anyway, yes, I think someone who gets arrested for meth use ought to avoid getting ridiculously drunk, lest they commit some other crimes and get more than a $10,000 (as it’s beginning to cost) “slap on the wrist.”

And over and above this- if you’re trying to get a job, do you want your entire network thinking of you as the guy who gets hilariously drunk at parties? His reputation should matter to him - but apparently the only reputation he wants is of the guy who drinks to excess and participated in a 5-man orgy (which he happily told many more people than wanted to hear).

Grey and digital: well, 3 of those were martinis. Not exactly light stuff! One was a margarita (and a share of someone else’s) one was a shot, and the other (I believe) was a glass of wine. Oh, and 2 martinis and the shot were in the same sitting. Keep in mind this was less than two months after promising me and another friend that he’d limit himself to one a night.

And as for the recent party, I don’t know how many “drinks” he had because he mixed his own and he mixes strong! (New Year’s '00 saw him fill a water bottle with half cranberry juice and half “So-Co” … yes he has a nickname for Southern Comfort! Oh, and he finished it, of course)

25

An interesting quirk in some alcoholics: They can get totally plastered on a relatively small amount of booze. Not all alcoholics develop a high tolerance that one might expect…

26

Get him out of his parents house.

sidenote: Being on my own for a few years and then moving back into my parents house, with no definate end to the living arrangement in sight, it was depressing. I get really depressed at times, for weeks or months even, and getting out of that is more difficult without having something to pull me out. I know I drink a helluva lot more when I’m depressed. I’m just trying to pull myself out of how I feel. And drinking makes me not feel sad. Getting back out on my own was hard and it took a while to get not so depressed but it happened. What helped was I started working on the things that make my personality such an addictive one.

Does your friend show any signs of wanting to work on his situation? Him making promises and such to other people just sounds like he’s trying to get them to lay off. Perhaps instead of talking to him about his problems talk to him about your life and things you would like to change, this could get him to start to talk with you. Then you can ask him if he’s happy or what he wants to change. I think the drinking could be bad but that’s not what causes his problems.

27

Well, spooje, you’re an NA member. I’ve been an AA member for nine days shy of 27 years now, and I can assure you that AA neither wants nor tries to deal with drug problems other than alcohol. (Ever heard of that little thing called “singleness of purpose”?) Yes, most people who drink also use drugs, and vice versa. But in each case, the issues are different and people go to each organization for the identification that is the source of recovery in BOTH groups. I know many, many “double dippers.” Yes, and in SoCal, too.

So don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. I’ve been to hundreds if not thousands of AA meetings in SoCal, and people who want to talk about their drug problems are ALWAYS referred to NA. It’s normally stated as, “We ask that you confine your sharing to problems related to alcohol.” And when people start sharing about drug problems, they’re invited to get info after the meeting on how to contact NA. (Or Al-Anon, or SLA, or CODA, or OA, or any of the many other self-help groups out there.)

All that being said, I agree 100% that if you’re trying to stay sober, you should stay clean, and vice versa. I’ve known too many NA members, however, who have ASSURED me that they couldn’t get and stay off alcohol in NA but had to come to AA for it to believe that there isn’t a reason there are different programs for different addictions.

I’m sorry to hear, by what you’re saying, that NA is trying to set itself up to help people recover from alcoholism, too, though. There’s already a program for that. That was there first, in case you didn’t know.

28

I didn’t say it was horeshit in regards to AA. I said it was horseshit in regards to NA.

Remeber this?

NA’s position is that the focus be on the disease, not the substance. Hence, there is no distinction between the substances. We see no difference in terms of recovery from addiction.

29

Thus watering down your singleness of purpose. Sad, that’s all I can say. AA does not and has never said it can deal with drug problems because the addictions are VERY different. I’m what they call a “pure” alcoholic, never addicted to anything else (smoked a little dope when younger but went back to my old standby every chance I got), and simply cannot identify with a bunch of drug addicts talking about their disease. Because it operates in very, very different ways.

If NA has decided it can handle alcohol, too, then I just hope it’s around in 50 years to handle ANYTHING. I gather it adopted AA’s steps but not its traditions?

30

Oops, hit send too soon. NA seems to be ignoring the principle that AA is founded on, that it’s IDENTIFICATION WITH OTHER ALCOHOLICS that forms the basis for recovery. The program may be the same, but without that initial threshold identification, there can be no recovery. I’ve seen drug addicts come to AA meetings in areas where there is no NA and have real trouble identifying because they don’t identify with us pure alcoholics. And I know if I had been sent to NA to recover from my alcoholism, it probably wouldn’t have taken because that wasn’t my problem.

Why do you think the birthday of AA is not when Bill Wilson got sober, but when he and Dr. Bob met and they discovered the key that identification of one alcoholic with another is the foundation for recovery?

31

I can assure you that the program of NA is strong and recovery is happening here. And we are indeed grateful to the program of AA, for without it we would not be here. I would never suggest that someone couldn’t find recovery there.

We have been here 50 years now. I agree that someone should go the program that they feel most comfortable with(where they can identify), and to attend meetings of that fellowship only. What I take issue with is the suggestion that one need to go one fellowship for this and the other fellowship for that.

We consider alcohol a drug (one which I partook of in great quantity). And it is dangerous* for us* to think of it any other way.

32

I’m not suggesting that NA folks shouldn’t think of alcohol as a drug, spooje. But I can assure you that the VAST majority of AA members that I’ve met over the years take strong issue with your contention that you shouldn’t go to the program where you can find identification with the people who share your problem, but do a “one-size-fits-all” type of program.

Have you ever been to a Double Winners meeting? They’re all over LA, and have been catching on in other parts of the country as well. For people who are in both AA and NA, where they can actually talk about BOTH programs without being told they shouldn’t raise their other addictions in whichever forum. I was the AA sponsor of a woman who was a Double Winner while I lived there; she also had an NA sponsor. AA generally RECOMMENDS you work more than one program if you have more than one problem; while we agree that taking drugs makes it virtually impossible to get sober, we also recognize that we aren’t in the business of recovery from anything other than alcohol. I’ve also attended Al-Anon, and I can GUARANTEE you that what I learned in Al-Anon I would NEVER in a million years learn in AA. Different needs create a different approach.

And actually, NA is not at all healthy in some parts of the country I’ve lived in. I’ve known quite a few NA folks who attend AA meetings by choice because, as they put it, “These are share-the-recovery meetings, not share-the-disease meetings.” I’m not saying there aren’t share-the-disease AA meetings too, but when there’s only one NA group in a 75-mile radius and that’s all it does, what do you do if you really DO want to recover?

Sorry for the hijack, Mulligoon! But as you can see, some of us do care about recovery and want to see people succeed, whatever they’re trying to recover from. And that includes you; if you really believe your friend has that big a problem, then do give Al-Anon a try. It’s a wonderful program.

33

Mama Tiger, I would very gently suggest that if it’s working for Spooje and others like him, I wouldn’t be dumping on it. Any port in a storm, and all that.

34

I did not say that at all. I said this:

I think we are not as far apart as it seems on this.

35

I’d not be sorry about that. One of NA’s greatest strengths is how it is open to people using all addictive drugs. I used to talk to Dr. Paul O. and his wife Max about this. Paul O. was the author of “Doctor, Alcoholic, addict” in the big book. The title of his story was recently changed because of the word “addict” in the title. AA waited until after Paul and Max were dead to do this. I know Paul felt badly about how some AA groups couldn’t seem to deal with people who abused other drugs as well as alcohol. Paul thought highly of NA’s ability to encompass all mood-altering drugs. And he learned his recovery basics in the company of Bill W. and Dr. Bob.

36

I should add tho that Paul O. did feel strongly that AA’s should focus on their core competency, alcohol. He didn’t like to see people who were addicted to alcohol and other drugs being told they shouldn’t come to AA because they’d also abused drugs.

37

Double winner here. Here in the Bay Area, the line between dope and booze can be pretty blurry. AA meetings here, in general, are tolerant of discussions of drugs. You’ll hear lots of people identify as alcoholic/addicts; some folks identify as addicts, and many many folks start out their shares with “Drugs are a big part of my story.”

It’s pretty hard to keep the two apart, especially when you’re chairing a meeting. Some of the old-timers take exceptions to this, mentioning “singleness of purpose,” but they are outnumbered by people who believe that “singleness of purpose” refering to “staying sober and helping other people achieve sobriety.” And the old-timers, by and large, are cool with this. After a grumble or two, they generally hang in with the rest of us.

I personally belong in both groups, but I’ve chosen AA over NA because I like and identify with the sobriety I find in AA meetings.

essvee (2 years this Saturday!)

38

spooje, I understood what you said, but I disagree. I honestly don’t believe that AA is the place for recovery from drugs, and vice versa for NA. Okay, call me a dinosaur, an old-timer, what you will. But I got sober in 1976, and I can assure you that the oldtimers who had 40+ years when I got sober were quick to assure me that AA was for treatment of alcoholism only and that the only way for AA to survive was to stick to its primary purpose. I’m one of those oldtimers you’re talking about, essvee. I believed them then and I believe them now. (I might also add that I got sober in Ohio, in a group founded in 1940 by a member of the original Akron group traveling through town. So I learned ooooold-fashioned AA and have stuck to it ever since.)

Interestingly, I have no objection to people mentioning their problems with other drugs – or food, or sex, or codependency, or whatever else their additions are – in an AA meeting. It’s just that the focus of the meeting should be recovery from alcoholism. Everything else is incidental. And while I’ve known a few really, really crusty old-timers to actually stomp out of a meeting or cut people off because drugs were mentioned – and have been in many meetings where drug use is specifically instructed not to be mentioned (anybody else ever been to a Pacific Group meeting, or meetings with a large Pacific Group contingent? They’ll bend over backwards to avoid naming any other drug they’ve used) – I’ve also seen people try to recover from drugs in AA, and try to recover from alcoholism in NA, and fail both times.

Why make it harder for yourself? Why not go to where you can identify with the people there, and if that requires going to more than one program, why not? You go to a cardiologist for your heart, not your broken leg, and the orthopedist who treats your leg isn’t going to treat your heart problems. Each has his specialty and sticks to it, and everyone does better in the end. In the recovery field, there isn’t necessarily going to be a one-size-fits-all program. Different addictions manifest themselves too differently – even physiological differences in the responses to drugs versus alcohol.

As an example, I’ve never had a drug problem in my life; I’ve taken quite a few prescription painkillers for various surgeries, some for a long time (over a year), and yet never once took even the full amount prescribed, let alone wanted to take more than permitted. In fact, I usually take half-doses in the few days immediately after surgery, when I really need the stuff, because that’s all I need for pain control. And the day the pain goes away, I stop taking the meds and don’t even notice it. So I could go to an NA meeting and hear you talking about addiction to prescription drugs, and it just would be meaningless to me. The two programs are simply not interchangeable.

I also have no objections to people identifying as alcoholic/addict. But when somebody identifies as “cross-addicted,” I usually am one of the folks who calls out something snarky like, “Yes, but are you an alcoholic?” I also object to people in AA identifying as addict/alcoholic. Strictly word order, but I’ve had enough oldtimers point out to me that it helps focus the mind on the meeting you’re actually in to think there’s probably something to it.

Of course, I’m sitting here listening to myself and saying to myself, “Omigod, you have turned into one of those crusty oldtimers!” But you know what? I’m glad I have. Because if it’s worked for me for 27 years – and had worked for my first sponsor’s father for 36 years when I got sober (yes, he got sober in 1942) – I figure there’s probably a good reason. If it ain’t broke, I’m not gonna mess with it, not after having spent my whole adult life (I got sober at 22) as a happy person thanks to not drinking!

39

Just a nitpick, but “So-Co” is a very common nickname for Southern Comfort. I knew it as “So-Co” before I knew the full name, and I don’t even drink the stuff.