Pitting wedding ceremonies

The BBQ Pit
21

Not answering my question. Not coming close. Not really trying to.

Look, I’m as big a romantic dope as most people. Since my divorce (12 years ago), I’ve dated at least three women for extended periods I’ve wanted to marry, if only for a few weeks here and there. I’m not looking to blame YOU for your stupid attitude, because I’ve had it myself, and may well have it in the future. I’ll probably get married again, God help me.

But I think the whole society would be better off if it weren’t seen as a wonderful, socially constructive, mortar-of-civilization kind of thing. I’m saying it should be seen more as a very risky, you-really-sure-you-wanna? Man,-you’re-brave kind of proposition. Which it isn’t.

We hear two people want to get married and we’re all “Hey, terrific, what good news, congratulations,” which people tend to like hearing. But those of us who can reason know damn well how rarely (or how often, Tom) it really works.

Good luck to you. But I doubt you’ll have it. Just don’t come bitching to me when you do.

Actually, come on and bitch. I’ll probably buy you a beer and listen to your tale of woe.

22

I really think that most adults, and even teens, these days see the divorce rate and realize that it’s a possibility. Heck, even when I was in high school over a dozen years ago, it was almost odd to meet people whose parents weren’t divorced.

Most of my friends who’ve gotten married have spent a few years living together before tying the knot; I dated then lived with my now-husband for a total of 8 years before we got married, and even then we only set the wedding date because his parents were nagging us. We weren’t in any hurry, but we’re still happily together nearly 7 years later.

So frankly, I’m at a loss as to what else could be done to convince people that maybe they really aren’t in love all that much. We’ve got the evidence of a decent divorce rate, we’ve got the trauma of bitter divorces being impressed on kids who grow up to mistrust marriage, and we have the ‘why bother getting hitched, let’s shack up!’ tendency. :stuck_out_tongue:

23

I’m not sure what you’re hoping for as an alternative. What would you recommend? Especially, what do you feel would be best for children to grow up in, that would not hurt them?

I think part of the reason we still like marriage is that it is so great when it works. A lot of us still see good marriages around, and want that for ourselves. It can be done, apparently. I have the example of two great, strong marriages in my family tree–and some pretty bad ones as well–and I hope to have that for my family, too. Because when a couple makes it work, well, what’s better than that?

Optimism and hope: if the human race didn’t have it, we’d have all committed suicide long ago. Or something. I guess.

24

To answer your question, I don’t think any disastrous divorce statistic would have prevented me from getting married unless it came out of a crystal ball and that statistic included me. Quite honestly, I don’t equate other people’s failures with what I’m capable of achieving. Yeah, I think it sucks that too many people appear to take marital commitment too lightly. It sort of diminishes its importance. Why do I think its important? So kids get a chance to grow up in a stable, loving environment. So you know who’s gonna be there for you when you’ve lost your job and aren’t driving a spanking new car anymore. So you can continue to build your character through the development of trust, honesty, perseverance, and compromise.

I do agree with you that people do get married too quickly, without pause, and lacking the skills it takes to go one-on-one with the same person year in and year out for a lifetime. I also believe that it’s too easy to get divorced making the challenge of marriage not worth the effort. But I irrefutably do not subscribe to the belief that every marriage is doomed. Particularly not mine. Regardless of whatever your, or anyone else’s, shortcomings may be.

25

I’ve been married for two and a half years. We were engaged for nearly two years before we got married. We chose to get married because we wanted to make a formal, legal and public statement of our commitment to each other. We were aware that many marriages end in divorce (we had heard the 50% figure), and we did a lot of soul searching before we took the plunge. My feeling at the time was that our relationship was strong, solid and that we were both dedicated to each other, but I still had a fear of the unknown future. My final conclusion was that we were entering into marriage in the right spirit, that we were both prepared to work hard to keep it together and that letting fear of what the future might bring keep us from taking that step was foolish and pointless. Both of us felt strongly that we would like to have children someday, and that we both only wanted to have children born in wedlock. A decision not to marry would have also been a choice to either not have children, or to have children outside of wedlock even though that went against what both of us believed in.

To date, our marriage has been successful but we know it’s early days yet. I fear that conflict will be inevitable but so far it’s been smooth sailing. I hope our love for each other and our commitment to making this marriage work will be enough to see us through, and that neither of us will just walk away or betray the other. I can’t see how including pessimistic predictions in our wedding ceremony would change anything.

26

Um, pseudotriton, it seems to me that many of the people above (including me) weren’t arguing that marriage should always be seen as a starry-eyed romantic fantasy that makes everything perfect – just that bringing up those kinds of concerns would be inappropriate at the wedding ceremony.

27

Wow, you’re an even bigger asshole than I thought. Bitter, too.

Did you see my post above where I said we’re completely aware of what might happen? We know the statistics. As CinnamonGirl said, short of a crystal ball showing the disinegration of OUR marriage, nothing would prevent us from going through with it.

I’m not entirely sure of the answer you want here. Do you WANT us all to say “Okay, you’re right, marriages suck, we’ll end it.” so that you’ll feel better about your own?

But as others have said - the majority go IN knowing the statistics. That doesn’t make it appropriate to discuss those at the wedding.

Ava

28

Okay, Avabeth, I’m thinking I’ll probably want to limit that offer to a single beer in your case.

You’re coming across as a very angry person who’s so desperate that her own relationship work out that she’s fending off all implications that she’s heading down the garden path to disaster. “No, no, not me. Uh-uh. No, sir. No way could I be in that 50% rate of future divorces. Maybe you, buster, you’re all embittered, and anti-marriage in the first place, of course your marriage didn’t work out, but wonderful delightful people like me and my sweet hubby–it always works out for us. People like me have a 100% success rate. And if you want to argue that point, I’ll play the You’re An Asshole card. That’ll shut you up.”

Okay, let’s stipulate that I’m an asshole. You know something, though? We’re all assholes, especially those of us who choose to believe that marriage is good insititution for the human race.

Now, as I wrote, I believed that getting married would enrich my life, and on certain days I still do. I used to feel, and assert, that “Love will overcome any difficulty” and during my marriage, for maybe ten years of it, I felt that would prevail. But it didn’t. You want to find some fault in me that created a problem? I’ve got legal transcripts aplenty testifying to my faults, and those of my ex-spouse, and it ain’t a pretty picture. But this isn’t about me. It’s about a;ll the young self-deceiving people who get married --and whom society encourages to get married–in a context of many divorces and many, many more failed and miserable marriages.

But let’s examine your case, Avabeth. I posited a hypothetical question: is there a level of failed and broken marriages that WOULD represent a danger to you and your hubby’s eagerness to get married? Or would you still, after seeing a 90% failure rate, still cling to “That will never apply to us”?

I guess I’m calling that whole self-deception thing a refusal to apply broad social trends to one’s own case. And as I said, I’ve been there, and I certainly deceived myself into thinking my love for my bride was so special I needn’t concern myself with social trends and such. I just wish I hadn’t.

This all came into focus, not for the first time, by the juxtaposition of my friends’ wedding and the last few days, which I’ve spent in family court, 12 years after my divorce, trying to settle some ongoing visitation issues concerning my younger daughter. My wedding vows included a lot of "forever"s and "eternal"s but the only truly lasting result has been the ongoing legal battles that I’ve come to accept as what I have to do to be a part of my kids’ lives.

You want to turn your head away and say, “Well, fuck you, asshole, that’s you and it’s not me, and never will be”? No skin off my back. I’m just trying, in my own bitter, assholic way, to raise some isues that might affect all of our lives. You’re free to feel otherwise until it’s too late, and then I’ll just feel sorry for you.

I have no solutions, Matt McL. Thinking back, I probably wouldn’t have listened to any stern warnings in my wedding ceremony, and I probably would have disregarded any mandatory counseling if it were required. There’s just this tremendous disconnect with the all the buoyant optimism of weddings and the eventual outcomes for so many of the optimists.

Doesn’t apply to you? I’m a jerk for bringing it up? I can live with that.

29

Dude - where the fuck are you getting that from? We’re perfectly aware that there’s a chance our marriage will not work. I’ve said that SEVERAL TIMES in this thread.

The only thing making me ‘angry’ is your condescending offer of a drink to celebrate the end of a marriage that hasn’t begun yet. If that’s not bitter and assholish, I don’t know what is.

Show me where I said “Fuck you, that’s not me and never will be.” I said “I’m getting married in September, and the idea of not making it is one we don’t want to have to face, but we have discussed the possibility. However, our goal is to have a long, happy marriage and we’ll do whatever is necessary to do that.”

How do you get “That’s not me and never will be” out of that? I think perhaps your

You think you can offer up any issues we haven’t already discussed? We’ve discussed it ALL, including divorce. However, I refuse to go into the marriage thinking it’s doomed. If that makes me a Pollyanna, so be it.

Ava

30

Fuck.

That should have been:
“How do you get “That’s not me and never will be” out of that? I think perhaps your reading comprehension skills need a bit of work.”

That’s what happens when work interferes with the Dope.

Ava

31

**“your condescending offer of a drink to celebrate the end of a marriage that hasn’t begun yet.” **

You misunderstand. The offer was for when or if your marriage does fail. I promise you, if your marriage self-destructs on you, you’ll feel differently about venting to someone who lends a friendly ear. If not, then not. The offer still applies.

Take an analogy, (and please don’t ask me to defend any extensions of the analogy, because it’s purely for illustrative purposes here):

A young person announces he intends to start smoking. You point out how most people who smoke get lung cancer. The young person angrily responds that’s bullshit, you’re bitter because YOU got lung cancer from smoking, but in point of fact, most smokers do NOT develop lung cancer. HE intends to get regular lung-checkups, he’s not (as you are condesendingly implying) ignorant of the dangers, but he just doesn’t believe they will apply to him, and besides smoking gives him such pleasure, brings to him such utter satisfaction, that he doubts very much that any dangers can outweigh the so-called risks you’re concerned about.

What are you going to do? You move on, say “You’re a grownup,” and offer to visit in the hospital if he becomes ill. Then you exit, as the person says, “I wouldn’t let you in hospital room if I was on the verge of death,” and you just think “We’ll see. I hope you’re right.”

Doesn’t mean it’s right that our society tacitly encourages people to smoke, does it? It just means you’re free to endanger your own future happiness.

Look at this statistically: let’s assume that several young Dopers share your annoyance with my rude, impertinent, intrusive OP. If there are ten of you who think my OP is offensive (and I suspect there are far more than ten who think so), isn’t it overwhelmingly likely that at least one of those Dopers will have cause someday to agree with me? Well, I accept the apology in advance.

32

Okay. I do understand what you’re saying. I get it (regardless of the analogy).

Now listen to what most of us are saying.

I agree that there are a lot of risks involved. And that’s regardless of who’s entering into the marriage - whether it be me and the mr, or anyone else in this thread. The fact that people divorce is proof that there are risks.

To try to avoid BECOMING a statistic, we work on our relationship now and we will work on our relationship after we’re married. We’re going to premarital counseling, we discuss everything, and we even argue every so often - which, strangely enough, tends to clear the air. We are more than aware that divorce is out there, and we’re more than aware that we have a chance of becoming one of those divorced couples.

But do I think it’s appropriate to mention it at a wedding? Hell, no. If the couple have done their homework, they’ve already covered divorce in their discussions. They know the risks. They don’t need a black cloud over a happy day. And if they haven’t done their homework…well, attempting to educate them on the perils of divorce on their wedding day will probably result in them sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming “La-la-la-la-la-la! I can’t HEAR YOU!”.

And I don’t necessarily think that your OP is offensive, just unrealistic. And it doesn’t seem that you give credit where credit is due for those who recognize and understand the risks. In the end, we may still become a statistic, but we’re going into it with our eyes wide open.

Ava

33

Well, if you were to show me evidence that 90% of marriages end horribly, I’d tell you that you were still wrong. You see, 100% of marriages end horribly, because you either split up, or one of you dies. If you think the death of someone you’ve commited to spending your life with isn’t horrible, you’re fucking crazy.

If you were to show me evidence that 90% of marriages end in bitter, acrimonious divorce, I’d want to see some more statistics. I’d want to know how many of those were serial marriages (people who marry and divorce multiple times), how many of them ended because the participants were immature and not ready for marriage, how many ended because the participants had unrealistic expectations about marriage or had different expectations than their partner, how many of them were shotgun marriages, how many of them got married to “fix” problems in the relationship, etc.

If you could show me hard data indicating that the majority (nevermind 90%, I’ll settle for a simple majority) of first-time marriages between couples in their late 20’s who have been together for over five years, who have compatible ideas about money, kids, sex, dealing with relatives, and conflict resolution, who have discussed these issues and thus know their ideas are compatible rather than just assuming they are, who already KNOW they’re going to disagree about some things, who already know that sometimes these disagreements will be about stuff that’s important to one or both of them, and who have been seperated for significant amounts of time end in bitter divorces, well, I’ll buy you a beer. Hell, I’ll come up to New York to do it. But if you can’t show me that people in a long-standing relationship who are realistic about marriage and prepared for the bad as well as the good stand a high chance of divorcing, I’ll very politely invite you to jump in the East River.

34

I’m not really prepared to gather all the data you need (for a Pit thread) but I can tell you that 100% of it applies to my personal situation (i.e., we were both mature, had lived together for many years, had resolved many conflicts, had undergone counseling, were extremely thoughtful–both of us were finishing up Ph. D.s-- , had never married before, both came from families where two parents had been married only once for life, and about every other category you named or could name) and we still got bitten on the ass.

I guess I’m asking why we all push people who lack several of the advantages you cite, (much less people who lack all of them) to get married, as a culture. Wouldn’t we be much better off if marriage were seen as a way of life for some few people and not the norm for everyone? It’s very sad to attend these happy occasions (I’m attending several weddings this month), and I really feel for the people involved, knowing that statistically, this is a step closer–for some of them–to Hell on earth. I’m feeling like I would be feeling if two friends of mine were setting out in a sailboat to cross the Pacific during monsoon season–much more worried than joyous, but everyone else is screaming “Yay!” so I shut up. My silence, however, doesn’t mean I’m not concerned for my friends’ well-being.

35

I guess we could all just shut ourselves off from human contact rather then risk getting hurt. In my opinion the risk of being hurt is worth the benefits of a committed relationship. Better to have loved and lost then yadda, yadda, yadda.

Marc

36

So, you have a sample size of…one relationship, and from that you’re extrapolating that the majority of our marriages are doomed? We need to greatly diminish the role marriage plays in our society because there’s a risk? Um, okay. No bitterness or irrationality there.

Of course there’s a risk no matter how well-prepared you are. Only a complete and total moron thinks that you can do anything in this life without risk. No matter how carefully you drive, there’s a risk of dying a flaming death on the highway. No matter how carefully you monitor your diet, exercise, and cholesterol, you run the risk of stroke and heart attack. No matter how conscientiously you vaccinate your puppy, you run the risk of him getting parvo. Sometimes even when you look both ways, you still get creamed by a bus. Life is risky.

So, you’re concerned about the welfare of your friends, but not concerned enough to, I don’t know, be happy that they’re happy? Nice. Real nice.

37

This is my biggest pet peeve in discussions about marrige. It is a well touted statistical fact that 50% of marriages fail, however this interpretation fails to take into account those who marry multiple times. There are people who are serial brides and grooms.

Statistics can be manipulated to support any viewpoint. Take Pseudo for instance, statistics say he should still be married,and yet…

38

I love it when people who self-describe as “Crazy” call me irrational. I’m nothing if not rational, especially in this discussion. I was hardly citing my own experience as a definitive sample size, just anecdotally responding to all of your categorical assertions that just happen to contradict my own story. it’s kind of tough to accept being told that marriage is perfectly safe if you’re x,y,z, etc., and you happen to BE x,y,z, etc. and it was an especially danger-fraught exercise.
Keturah–As I freely conceded to Tom (above) whether it’s 50% or 60% or 40% of marriages that end in divorce is irrelevant–my point is that marriage is dangerous, and dangerous in some cases where the parties remain undivorced. To defend marriage in this context is, essentially, to cling to saying, “I don’[t care what your statistics say–I’m going to marry if I want to no matter how many marriages end in divorce” which is praiseworthy perhaps for its romantic courage, but hardly for its rationality.

39

In the 1941 baseball season, Ted Williams had a batting average of .406, the highest of the modern era. What a loser.

Almost sixty percent of the time, he didn’t even get a hit! People call it great when you FAIL 60% of the time? What bullshit!

I propose that every time an anxious ten-year-old goes up to bat in a Little League baseball game, these numbers should be told to him in no uncertain terms by the umpire before he’s allowed to face a pitch. Then, after clearly explaining that it’s overwhelmingly likely that the kid is about to fail his team, his family, and himself in a very public setting, the ump should put a reassuring hand on his shoulder and say, “Are you sure you want to even try this, son? Because you can walk away right now, and then you’ll never, ever be a failure.”

Yeah, that’s the spirit that got us to the fucking moon. Jackass.

40

If Williams’ happiness depended on whether he was going to get a hit on any given at-bat, then yes he would have been very ill-advised to base his lifetime’s happinesson that event, even if he’d batted .506 lifetime.

BTW, he didn’t bat nearly so well at the altar, either.

Oh, and since this is is the pit, and you seem to enjoy this sort of thing: Dipshit.
Armpit-sniffer. Yo’ momma has skidmarks on her wedding dress.