To Wed or Not To Wed

[DocDaneeka]

This post is a result of another thread I started asking for some alternatives to the standard marriage ceremony. If you want to see that thread, go here.

Basically, my girlfriend and I don’t believe in marriage, don’t want to be married, but would like to celebrate our relationship with some sort of non-marriage. I was asking for ideas for some alternatives. The whole concept was brought into question by Tamex. Rather than hijacking the thread where I’m hoping to get some good ideas and suggestions, I thought I’d start a debate here.

I’ll be quoting some of Tamex’s post as I go.

Tamex said:
If you aren’t getting married, why do you feel the need to have a party? What would this celebration be for? What would the ring be for? Would it just be a gift, or would it “mean” something?

Neither my girlfriend nor myself believe in marriage. We’ve both been married before, and have no interest in going down that path again. This is not a knee-jerk reaction to mistakes we made in the past. Rather, this is a subject we’ve both thought deeply about and have discussed at length.

There are several reasons we are not choosing to marry. The main reason is that neither of us believes in life-long committment. Does that mean I’m planning on dumping her some day down the road? No. Can I picture myself with her the rest of my life? Definitely. However, I’m not going to promise her that I’ll be there for life, because the truth is, there are circumstances where I would leave or she would leave. Say I was physically abusive toward her. Should she stick around for that? Or say she’s sleeping with all my friends? Should I tolerate that? Nope. I’d drop her. (And the friends as well). Do I think that those things are going to happen? No. Neither does anyone else when they get married, yet somehow we have a 65% or so divorce rate. I’m not going to make a promise I’m not sure I can keep. I made that promise once, and broke it. That added to the rest of the pain I felt due to the separation. I’m not making that mistake again.

Another reason is that marriage is strongly associated with a religion that we do not believe. Along similar lines, I don’t think the government needs to be that involved with my intimite life. Why sign a legal paper declaring who your partner is? I want and need neither the sanction of the Church or State.

Plus, look at the 65% (and climbing) divorce rate. Whatever the reasons behind it, it’s being proven over and over that marriage is an institute that DOES NOT WORK in our current society. There’s nothing in the world I’m going to commit that kind of energy, money and emotion to that only has a 35% chance of success. Forget it.

I could go on for pages. I admit to a certain level of cynicism about the whole thing, cynicism that is firmly grounded in experience and fact. I understand marriage works for many people, and I applaud them. I’m just not interested.

All of that being said, why can’t my girlfriend and I chose to celebrate our extremely successful and fulfilling relationship in any way we choose? Why can we not share our joy and our love with those close to us? You ask what the celebration is for. It’s for our love and our joy, and for an opportunity to share it. As for the ring, it would “mean” whatever we decide to attach to it. My girlfriend has already told me that, for her, it would be a symbol of our love that she would treasure, just as she would an “actual” wedding ring. I, personally, don’t want or need that kind of symbol, so I’m not going to get one. As for hers, she wants it and it will make her happy. That’s enough.

Do you plan to stay together forever, or not?

No. Neither do we plan on NOT being together forever. I can’t think in terms of forever. It’s too much, too unreal. I can think in terms of 1 year or 5 years or even 20 years. I don’t think anyone can honestly make a lifelong promise, and I’m not going to pretend that I can.

Is this just a ploy to receive “wedding” gifts?

Hahaha! For some reason, I thought this was funny. No. If I just wanted gifts, I’d have a housewarming party as you suggest below.

My opinion is that, since you noted a lack of money, you should either a)forgo the whole thing or, b) wait until you have bought and moved into your new house and then throw some sort of housewarming party. Perhaps a barbecue or a potluck. That way, you can show off your new house, and most people will be able to infer that you two have, indeed, shacked up. It will be quite unlike a wedding because it won’t be a wedding at all, or even a psuedowedding. If you want to hire a DJ and have a dance, or have a cake, or play charades, or whatever–go ahead, do what you can afford. If people wish to bring you housewarming gifts, that will be their prerogative. Any other commitment that you two make should be made in private. There should be no public “ceremony”.

Maybe I’m being a little sensitive, but I found that entire paragraph to be pretty condescending, especially the bits about “Perhaps a barbecue or potluck” and “most people will be able to infer that you two have, indeed, shacked up” and “There should be no public ‘ceremony’”. The whole attitude is that, since we’re not choosing to marry, our relationship doesn’t really count. That’s fairly presumtious, don’t you think?

However, I do realize there are those who are going to have this attitude about what we’re doing. While I find that unfortunate, it doesn’t really matter. We will attempt to let those we invite know what the ceremony means to us. If anyone has a real problem with it, they are welcome to stay home.

This will be our own celebration, NOT a wedding. I don’t expect people to treat it like a wedding. I don’t WANT people to treat it like a wedding. I just want people to share and appreciate something I’m very happy with and very proud of.

You see, I would feel a bit odd about attending a “commitment ceremony” for a heterosexual couple. If you wish to commit yourselves to each other, then you can do that privately (and for free). If you want to proclaim that relationship to your families, friends, and the community at large–well, that’s what marriage is for.

You’d feel odd? I’m sorry. Don’t come. And who said we were heterosexual? (Just kidding). Again, here’s the belief that the only REAL way to have a relationship is the way that YOU would do it. If you were one of my close friends, I wouldn’t ask that you take us seriously. I’d ask that you respect that WE take it seriously.

I’m not sure why you and your girlfriend are “firmly opposed” to marriage, but it seems to me that you would like to reap at least some of the benefits of marriage.

There are a number of benefits for those in a state-sanctioned marriage. I think this is wrong, personally. I think that the government providing breaks for an institution so steeped in religion is a mockery of the “seperation of Church and State,” but there it is. My lady and I have (mostly jokingly) discussed getting legally married to take advantage of these benefits. Doesn’t that sound horrible, though? Isn’t that almost worse than not getting married, only getting married for the financial benefits? I don’t believe in the institution of marriage. It’s going to take more than a couple of tax breaks and a few bucks off my car insurance for me to sell out my values and beliefs. I’m sure I have a price <wink wink> but it’s higher than that.

Don’t be surprised if the world at large occasionally refuses to recognize your relationship without that “little piece of paper,”

I won’t be surprised. Disappointed that so many of those around me can be so obtuse and close-minded to think that that “little piece of paper” decides the seriousness and depth of a relationship. Not surprised.

You certainly have the right not to get married. You may have a very good reason not to. But, IMO, if you are going to throw a wedding, have a ceremony, and exchange rings in public, you should be getting married. Anything else seems like a sham.

It’s not a sham since we’re not trying to have a wedding, or pretend it’s a wedding, or wish it was a wedding or anything of the sort. The only reason I brought up the term wedding at all (as in “non-wedding”) is that marriage is so deeply ingrained in our culture that you can’t try to celebrate a romantic relationship without it coming up. Again, the point of this exercize is not for us to promise each other anything, but to celebrate what we have with those we care about. If any of those close to us are unable to share that joy because of the technicality of a marriage certificate, that’s unfortunate. If everyone around us feels that way, it will be depressingly unfortunate and the party will be small. However, we will celebrate. Anyone who wishes to join us is welcome.

[amarinth]

Could I get a cite for the 65% divorce rate - that seems a bit high.

[DocDaneeka]

This link has some statistics on it, including one that supports my statement of a 65% divorce rate. I don’t know how accurate the information is. In my quick research I just did, almost everyone seems to agree that the divorce rate is AT LEAST 50%. You have to admit that it’s an alarming figure. The consensus for the divorce rate for re-marriages seems to be about 65%, and the divorce rate for children of divorce is also 65%… that may actually be what I heard or read that prompted me to use that figure in my OP. Since my GF and I have both been married in the past, and since we’re both children of divorce, our chances, statistically, are still a mere 35% at best, even if the national average is 50/50.

In any case, I know at least as many people who have been divorced as I know people who are still happily married to their first spouse. Many people I know have been divorced more than once. The figures may actually look more promising if you count people who divorce against those who stay married instead of number of divorces against number of marriages. I know at least a couple people who have been married and divorced 8 or 9 times. That’ll throw off statistics. Still, I don’t think anyone could argue that, in this day and age, marriage is a particularly successful institution. It’s unlikely to be successful for me in any case, as I have strong opinions against marriage. If I were to marry again, it would be a sham.

[Snooooopy]

Toga party.

[Staaxyo]

To me (and this is just my opinion) you can look at this two ways.

One (the good way): Choosing to not marry but still have a committed, serious relationship is a great thing. Marriage is not a pre-requisite of two people who love each-other and want to spend the rest of their lives together. The moral majority says that it should be this way but individuals need to make their own choice. It’s free will and I nor anyone else should try to push society’s beliefs or personal beliefs on anyone. But this sounds more like it should be a personal and private thing between the two of you. You can exchange rings and make your own pledges to each other but it should be just between the two of you. You can get a matching set of Irish Claddagh rings (Love, Loyalty, Friendship) and wear them on your right hand instead of your left (just a suggestion; who cares if you’re Irish or not - it’s the meaning behind it that matters). Go on a nice trip and do it then. When you come back, just throw a party and get family and friends together. You don’t even need to tell them why you’re throwing a party. Besides, some people (and not knowing your friends and family they may not agree or understand). It sounds like the two of you have discussed it and hopefully have thought out all details (seperate or joint bank accounts, health insurance, life insurance, what to do about last names of children if you decide to have any, etc.)

Two (the bad way): It sounds like the two of you have an out if the relationship doesn’t work or you decide to pursue other things in life. “Hey, it’s not like we’re married” is a quote that comes to mind. Also, what happens if 10 or 20 years down the road, you or your “wife” decides that you’ve changed your mind and after all this time you think you can make a legal marriage work (don’t rule the possibility out; people can change) and the other wants nothing to do with it. Do you break it off with the other for your beliefs, even if you say that you love that person and at that point is it love or selfishness? I can go on and on, but I think you get the drift.

Am I married? Yes. Did I want to marry my wife? Absolutely. Do I think it was the right thing to do? Yes. But again, those are my personal beliefs. It has nothing to do with church or society. That’s what her and I wanted after talking about it and letting each other know what we wanted from our relationship; that was just one way of us showing our commitment to each other. Should you do the same thing just because I did it? Hell, no!! You do what you feel is right for the two of you. I can see the pro’s and con’s of both ways but my relationship is my business and your relationshipis your business. Don’t listen to what anyone says. Listen to your heart (although it sounds like your using your head just as much; but rememeber the two will conflict at some point).

Good luck.

[kabbes]

Do you lot in the US not have the concept of common law wife then? Over here I believe if you’ve been shacked up long enough, the courts wouldn’t care that you’d never signed that bit of paper.

The point being that if you’ve lived together for 20 years, the chances are that you’re lives are intwined sufficiently to make separation bloody difficult, marriage or not.

pan

[kabbes]

Bah, I was going to say “chances are that you’re not easily separable”, made the change, forgot to change the “you’re” and ended up looking like a dunce. I hate that.

I also hate people posting to correct their earlier errors. Errr.

pan

[QuickSilver]

I don’t know why people get so upset by something that happens between two consenting adults who are clearly not doing anything that is hurting anyone else in any way, shape or form.

I will echo the opinion that if you stay together as a non-married couple for 20 years (it’s just a number I picked) you will not have an easier time of disentangling yourselves from one another than a traditionally married couple going through a divorce. In fact, in some ways it may become even more difficult - but that all depends on the two of you and how you choose to behave should that unfortunate circumstance ever come to pass.

So have whatever ceremony you want. Say the things that you like. Do the things that are meaningful to you. Invite who you want. Eat, drink and be merry!

Many long and happy years to you and your partner.

[urban1]

*Originally posted by kabbes *
**Do you lot in the US not have the concept of common law wife then? Over here I believe if you’ve been shacked up long enough, the courts wouldn’t care that you’d never signed that bit of paper.

The point being that if you’ve lived together for 20 years, the chances are that you’re lives are intwined sufficiently to make separation bloody difficult, marriage or not.

pan **

Actually, common law marriage does exist in the US. At least in some states, if not all. See this site for more information

[minty_green]

Good link, urban. And the important point to emphasize from that page is that shacking up, by itself, is not sufficient to form a common law marriage, even in the states that recognize it.

[Kiki]

Living together for 20 years doesn’t make you common law married. This tells you which states recognize common law marriages and the different requirements for each state.

This discusses some of the myths of common law marriages and how to avoid becoming common law.

**

There is a common misperception that if you live together for a certain length of time (seven years is what many people believe), you are common-law married. This is not true anywhere in the United States.**

If you want to avoid becoming common law:

**. The attorneys who wrote Living Together (additional information below) recommend an agreement in writing that both partners sign and date: “Jane Smith and John Doe agree as follows: That they’ve been and plan to continue living together as two free, independent beings and that neither has ever intended to enter into any form of marriage, common law or otherwise.”

**

Since you’ve stated that you and your girlfriend don’t want to get married you can just print this thread and you and your girlfriend sign and date it. An ounce of prevention, etc., etc.

As for me, I’m getting married next April. I’ve been married once before and it wasn’t a good experience but I’m not going to let that one bad experience shatter what I believe in and what I want. Basically, I think people should do whatever makes them happy. If you two are happy living together and being together, that’s wonderful. I wish you nothing but the best. Have a party if you want. Tell your guests that you guys are in love and happy and you just wanted to share it with the rest of your loved ones.

[Tygr]

*Originally posted by DocDaneeka *
Disappointed that so many of those around me can be so obtuse and close-minded to think that that “little piece of paper” decides the seriousness and depth of a relationship. Not surprised.

<Foghorn> No, no, boy! You’re lookin’ at it through the wrong end! </Foghorn>

Sorry, but it’s true - you’ve got it backwards. Society doesn’t believe that a piece of paper decides the seriousness of the relationship. The piece of paper demonstrates the seriousness of the relationship. It is public proof of a private commitment. Same as a ring.

The point of a marriage is an outward demonstration of an inward commitment. Religious trappings of a wedding ceremony are to place the commitment within the context of both participants’ faith. Legal trappings are to ensure that both participants’ (individual AND collected) interests are protected throughout the duration. Government benefits are given because society (and remember, government is, at its base, the tool of society’s values) acknowledges the value of making that commitment.

Marriage is celebrated because it is a lifetime commitment. We celebrate because two people have vowed to remain together for the rest of their lives, no matter what happens.

The whole attitude is that, since we’re not choosing to marry, our relationship doesn’t really count. That’s fairly presumtious, don’t you think?

Not as presumptuous as expecting the whole of society to take your relationship more seriously than you appear to be taking it. I’m really not wanting to be insulting (though I realize I’m running that risk), but you aren’t willing to make a stated commitment to always be there for each other, so why SHOULD the rest of society consider it as serious as a marriage?

No. Neither do we plan on NOT being together forever. I can’t think in terms of forever. It’s too much, too unreal. I can think in terms of 1 year or 5 years or even 20 years. I don’t think anyone can honestly make a lifelong promise, and I’m not going to pretend that I can.

Honestly, I understand you’ve had a terrible experience in the past with marriage, and I sympathize (No, really!). But I think you are giving the whole “together forever” concept more weight than it’s supposed to have. “Til death do us part” is NOT as important as love, honor, cherish, forsaking all others… In a marriage these are the things you vow to do “til death do you part”. What a marriage is, is living these vows every day, one day after another, until forever comes. The work is not done the day of the wedding - it’s done every day afterward, in continually cherishing and honoring your mate.

<Soapbox>Personally, I believe the statistics you cited for divorce are the result of the vows not being taken seriously, rather than a justification to not take them seriously. Our society has made feelings more important than actions to the point that everyone thinks that “Hey, we feel in love! Let’s get married!”. Then when the feelings fade: “Hey, I don’t feel in love anymore! Let’s get divorced!” Tragically, the second part too often happens after children have entered the picture.</Soapbox>

[Sengkelat]

*Originally posted by DocDaneeka *
“There should be no public ‘ceremony’”. The whole attitude is that, since we’re not choosing to marry, our relationship doesn’t really count. That’s fairly presumtious, don’t you think?

That attitude would be presumptuous, but I don’t think it’s what he was getting at. He’s right that there should be no public ceremony. Just tell me, what is it a ceremony of? It’s not a commitment ceremony, because you don’t believe in commitment. So what, then? A ceremony of love? Millions of people are deeply in love with some other person, but they don’t feel the need to have a ceremony. Now, if you want to have a first anniversary party to celebrate your relationship, go for it. But a ceremony? Generally a ceremony celebrates some turning point, some particular event in one’s life. Graduation ceremonies, wedding ceremonies, retirement ceremonies, commitment ceremonies…they all represent a change, decision, or promise. What will your ceremony represent?

We will attempt to let those we invite know what the ceremony means to us.

Definitely a good idea, because most people are probably going to mistakenly think it means you’ve chosen to commit.

I just want people to share and appreciate something I’m very happy with and very proud of.

Which is what anniversary parties are for.

…so many of those around me can be so obtuse and close-minded to think that that “little piece of paper” decides the seriousness and depth of a relationship.

It’s certainly not determined by a piece of paper. But a refusal to commit certainly makes me think less of the seriousness of a relationship.

Now, you’ve said you don’t believe it’s possible to promise a lifelong commitment. It’s true that all sorts of things may happen that are beyond your control. But when you make that promise, you’re promising to try. You’re basically saying “Circumstances would have to be entirely, irreparably dire for me to not make every effort to make the relationship work.” It is implicit in the promise that your examples of being physically abusive or sleeping around makes the promise null and void. Or, if you don’t like it being implicit, then it can be written into your vows: Monogamy, respect, protection, etc. The fact that you are unwilling to make that promise reflects on your willingness to try.

Plus, look at the 65% (and climbing) divorce rate. Whatever the reasons behind it, it’s being proven over and over that marriage is an institute that DOES NOT WORK in our current society.

You know, it irks me when you say, all in caps, that marriage doesn’t work. It may have a high failure rate, but try telling the 35% who are still together that marriage doesn’t work. (Actually higher than 35%, since people can divorce multiple times, but can have only one “successful” marriage.) Yes, there are lots of divorces, but I attribute that to there being lots of messed up people in the world. It has little to do with the institution of marriage.

There’s nothing in the world I’m going to commit that kind of energy, money and emotion to that only has a 35% chance of success. Forget it.

Well, almost 100% of non-marriage relationships break up eventually. By your logic, you shouldn’t be putting much energy into your current relationship. Which is fine, there’s no problem with that…but why then the ceremony?

I certainly don’t want you to think I’m advocating marriage. If you and your GF don’t want to get married, then you absolutely shouldn’t. And I’m certainly not against two people living together without being married. But I really question what it is you two are doing.

[Kimstu]

DocD: *“Do you plan to stay together forever, or not?”

No. Neither do we plan on NOT being together forever. I can’t think in terms of forever. It’s too much, too unreal. I can think in terms of 1 year or 5 years or even 20 years. I don’t think anyone can honestly make a lifelong promise, and I’m not going to pretend that I can. *

*“Any other commitment that you two make should be made in private. There should be no public “ceremony”.”

Maybe I’m being a little sensitive, but I found that entire paragraph to be pretty condescending […] The whole attitude is that, since we’re not choosing to marry, our relationship doesn’t really count. That’s fairly presumtious [sic], don’t you think? *

I think the problem is not so much that you’re being “a little sensitive” as that you’re being a little inconsistent. First you say that you “don’t think anyone can honestly make a lifelong promise” to stay together. That, of course, is basically what a marriage vow is (though as you point out, most people accept the possibility of extreme and catastrophic situations in which they’d break that vow), so you’re basically denigrating marriage as an unrealistic ideal. Then you complain about people who do believe in a permanent commitment denigrating your own relationship as one that “doesn’t really count”. I’d say, don’t dish it out if you can’t take it.

Most married people obviously believe that making a permanent commitment is possible and important, or they wouldn’t have gotten married. Naturally they’re going to feel that a relationship without a permanent commitment doesn’t “count” in quite the same way, though I agree it would be rude of them deliberately to disparage or put down your relationship to you on that account. Likewise, it would be rude of you to tell them that you “don’t believe in the institution of marriage” or that you don’t believe that anyone can “honestly” make a marriage vow.

Personally, I think you should have whatever kind of celebration makes you happy, and I wish you the best in your relationship for however long you want it to last. But you have to recognize that in our culture, the public celebration of a romantic relationship is generally taken to symbolize the announcement of a permanent commitment. The more “weddingy” your celebration is, the more people will be puzzled by your disclaimer that your relationship is not to be considered as a marriage. Lots of people will probably just not see the point in your gathering friends and family together to make the public declaration “We’re a loving and happy couple, for the time being!”

That’s simply the effect on our culture of the millennia-old tradition of the ideal of lifelong marriage, so I don’t think you should get on your high horse about how “presumptuous” such a reaction is. IMHO, efforts to create new rituals—and the public celebration of an explicitly non-permanent romantic commitment is definitely a new ritual for our culture—have to be undertaken with a lot of tolerance and good humor for the inevitable confusion and even suspicion that they are likely to generate. Putting a chip on your shoulder about how “obtuse and close-minded” your friends and family would have to be not to understand your beliefs and sympathize with your feelings is probably not the best way to “share your joy and your love with those close to you” on this occasion. Being defiant or aggressive about your convictions (however deep and sincere they may be) at the expense of the feelings of those who love you doesn’t sound any more appropriate for a “non-wedding” than for an actual wedding.

[rjung]

I say do whatever floats your twinkie. If people complain, tell 'em to get bent.

It’s a relationship between you and your SO. Other people’s views are relevant only in how much you are (un)willing to cheese them off by doing something they won’t like.

And if you want a non-marriage ceremony, just do it the Chinese way and have a big dinner banquet.

[amarinth]

I think ceremonies are big major events. Places where you make lifelong commitments, where something huge starts (births, weddings) or ends (deaths, graduations). In otherwords, to me, it implies a bigness that I hear you and your girlfriend want to stop short of implying.

So, what I would suggest is a huge party. Throw one. Cater it, or not. Rent a hall, or not. Make it lavish, or not. Do a wedding reception like thing - halfway through, get the attenders’ attention and say something along the lines of “We threw this party because we’ve been together for a year. We are happier than we ever dreamed possible, and we wanted to share our happiness with our family and friends.” Look at your girlfriend and say something how much you love her, how much she means to you, basically a great toast. She does the same. Everyone cheers, drinks to your continued health and love and happiness.

Basically, go for celebration, but not ceremony.

[DocDaneeka]

I’ll probably write up a more in-depth post responding to more specific items when I have the time, but I want to make a few general statements now.

First of all, I am fully aware that a lot of people are not going to accept or agree with what we’re doing. That’s fine. I personally think that’s unfortunate, but it doesn’t bother me. If people I invite have a problem with it, I won’t argue my point. They can decline to come, or come and keep quiet about it. As this forum is for debates of this nature, I’m going to present my point of view more thoroughly here than I may in real life. So, although I may appear to be defensive about this, I’m really not. I’m enjoying the debate here.

I think that the feeling that many of you have about this can be summed up nicely by what amarinth said:

*Originally posted by amarinth *
**Basically, go for celebration, but not ceremony. **

The point is, we WANT a ceremony. We merely don’t want the standard marriage ceremony. We’re not entirely sure what kind of ceremony we want, which is why I started my original thread asking for ideas.

It also seems assumed that, since I’m unwilling to make a lifelong commitment in the standard, socially accepted way, I’m unwilling to make a commitment at all. This is untrue. Neither my girlfriend nor I believe we can honestly make a lifelong commitment so we aren’t going to do it. I can’t promise “'Til death do us part” since I know there are circumstances in which the relationship could end while we’re both still alive. I AM willing to commit to giving the relationship everything I have, and fully intend to. We ARE commiting to each other… a commitment that I personally feel is a very reasonable, doable one. We haven’t worked out all the details yet, but this WILL be a commitment ceremony… a commitment that we’re both comfortable with and willing to do. It’s just not going to be marriage.

Whatever it is we decide to promise each other, it will be completely sincere and completely understood by both of us. What is the problem with this?

[The_Ryan]

OP:

Say I was physically abusive toward her. Should she stick around for that? Or say she’s sleeping with all my friends? Should I tolerate that? Nope. I’d drop her.

Well, in both of those examples the marriage contract is already broken, so I don’t see the other person leaving as breaking their promise.

Another reason is that marriage is strongly associated with a religion that we do not believe.

Naming people and things is often referred to as “Christening”, a clear association with Christianity. Do you plan on not naming any children you may have? As for government involvement, I suppose that if you don’t want any of the legal benefits then there’s no reason to get a marriage certificate.

Plus, look at the 65% (and climbing) divorce rate. Whatever the reasons behind it, it’s being proven over and over that marriage is an institute that DOES NOT WORK in our current society.

I don’t see how a 65% divorce rate proves that marriage doesn’t work. A marriage isn’t necessarily a failure just because it ends in divorce, and even if you consider the majority of marriages to be failures, that doesn’t mean marriage doesn’t work. If there were a drug that completely cured AIDS 35% of the time, would you consider that drug to not work?

All of that being said, why can’t my girlfriend and I chose to celebrate our extremely successful and fulfilling relationship in any way we choose?

What exactly are you planning on celebrating? Normally the purpose of a weddding is to celebrate the future relationship. Yet it appears that you are planning on celebrating your past relationship. If you are celebrating your past, but are willing to make no commitments regarding the future, is it really such a surprise that most people will consider your future to be nothing special? As others have pointed out, you are asking other people to attach special importance to your future relationship when you yourself are not willing to do so.

Staaxyo

The moral majority says that it should be this way but individuals need to make their own choice.

Sorry if this seems like a nitpick, but this is an example where punctuation makes a big difference in meaning. In the preceding quote, you declared that most believe that it should be this way, and that they are moral. If you had said “The Moral Majority says that it should be this way” or even better “The ‘Moral Majority’ says that it should be this way”, that would have made it clear that a group which claims to be moral and to be the majority believes this.

[pldennison]

*Originally posted by The Ryan *
**Staaxyo

The moral majority says that it should be this way but individuals need to make their own choice.

Sorry if this seems like a nitpick, but this is an example where punctuation makes a big difference in meaning. In the preceding quote, you declared that most believe that it should be this way, and that they are moral. If you had said “The Moral Majority says that it should be this way” or even better “The ‘Moral Majority’ says that it should be this way”, that would have made it clear that a group which claims to be moral and to be the majority believes this. **

To nitpick your nitpick, it appears you meant to refer to capitalization, not punctuation. :rolleyes:

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by DocDaneeka *
**

The point is, we WANT a ceremony. We merely don’t want the standard marriage ceremony. We’re not entirely sure what kind of ceremony we want, which is why I started my original thread asking for ideas.

**

I always thought a ceremony was a formal ritual that one did according to custom. But maybe I’m just splitting hairs.

**
It also seems assumed that, since I’m unwilling to make a lifelong commitment in the standard, socially accepted way, I’m unwilling to make a commitment at all. This is untrue. Neither my girlfriend nor I believe we can honestly make a lifelong commitment so we aren’t going to do it.

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I’m confused. On one hand you don’t believe you can make a lifelong commitment. Then you wonder why others assume that you are unwilling to make a lifelong commitment. Maybe we assume you aren’t willing because you yourself said you could not.

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I can’t promise “'Til death do us part” since I know there are circumstances in which the relationship could end while we’re both still alive.

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You can change marriage vows to reflect your personal beliefs.

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We haven’t worked out all the details yet, but this WILL be a commitment ceremony… a commitment that we’re both comfortable with and willing to do. It’s just not going to be marriage.

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Of course not, a marriage requires more commitment then you are willing to give at this point.

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Whatever it is we decide to promise each other, it will be completely sincere and completely understood by both of us. What is the problem with this? **

Go right ahead. Just don’t expect the rest of us to take it as seriously as you do. I know you might be thinking “I don’t care what other people think.” But that just isn’t true. If you really didn’t care then you wouldn’t have a ceremony of any kind and you certainly wouldn’t try to set it up as being as legitimate as a real marriage.

Marc