Pitting wedding ceremonies

My sister got married when she was 19, and they were divorced five years later; he’d been cheating on her most of that time. She spent several years being extremely bitter and saying that anyone who got married was stupid, and in fact gave most of the arguments pseudotron is giving in this thread; it could almost have been her saying these things.

Guess what my sister is doing in a month? Getting married again! Wow, my sister sure is a big, stupid, illogical idiot, isn’t she? I should call my sister up and tell her she’s an idiot and that she’s illogical and that she’s dumb for getting married again because chances are she’ll just get divorced again anyway, the stupid illogical bint!

Who in this thread has said that marriage is perfectly safe under any set of circumstances, you reading-impaired nincompoop? Is it just your bitterness keeping you from admitting that someone besides yourself might have a valid opinion, or is your brain damaged from tertiary syphilis?

Plenty of people, myself included, have acknowledged that there is ALWAYS a risk to getting married. Hell, I’ve pointed out myself that it’s a sure-fire route to heartache, because every marriage ends in one partner leaving the other, either through divorce or death. And you know what? It’s worth every single second of the guaranteed heartache one of us will wind up with. Fifteen minutes of wonderful followed by fifty years of agony is better than two hundred years of nothing special.

Sure getting married is risky. Everything worth doing is risky, as are most things not worth doing. You could run down to the corner store, get caught in a robbery, and wind up dead. You could fall going down the basement stairs and wind up paralyzed. Sex could get you pregnant or infected with a horrifying array of STD’s. You could lose a foot mowing your lawn. You could break a leg (or scalp yourself like my uncle did and get a plate in your skull) skiing. You could get killed in a wreck driving to work. Your plane could crash when you go on vacation. I’m epileptic; I could have a seizure during my evening bubble bath, lose consciousness, and drown.

Life is inherently dangerous, but the answer isn’t to quit living and shut yourself up in a bubble. The answer is to take reasonable precautions and go on with your life. Drive carefully. Look both ways before crossing the street. Turn on the lights and hold the banister when you go down to the basement. Use condoms and choose your sex partners carefully. Take your meds. Pay attention to the condition of the trail and your equipment, and use some judgement about whether or not to go on that one last run. Talk about everything large and small with someone BEFORE you get married, and make sure you have realistic and compatible expectations. Then enjoy the ride and hope for the best.

And like I said before, if you can show me statistics that the divorce rate among my demographic is as high as it is in the general population, I’l buy you a beer. Hell, I’ll buy you a case of anything you want. I rather seriously doubt you can do that, though. And in the end, that’s all anyone has said–that carefully preparing for marriage reduces–not eliminates, REDUCES–the risk of divorce.

[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber
Keturah–As I freely conceded to Tom (above) whether it’s 50% or 60% or 40% of marriages that end in divorce is irrelevant–my point is that marriage is dangerous, and dangerous in some cases where the parties remain undivorced. To defend marriage in this context is, essentially, to cling to saying, “I don’[t care what your statistics say–I’m going to marry if I want to no matter how many marriages end in divorce” which is praiseworthy perhaps for its romantic courage, but hardly for its rationality.[/QUOTE]

You have got to be kidding me. First of all, what do you mean by “undivorced”? Are you trying to manipulate the flawed statistic that you cited? I suppose that in your little world everyone who is married is “undivorced”. I am sorry that your relationship did not work out, but give me a break. Just because your “logical, rational” marriage did not work out, does not mean that other marriages cannot withstand the test of time. You seem to think that yoiu had the ideal relationship, mathematically, and if it didn’t work than no relationshop will ever work. Try to stop being so bitter.

I am not sure anyone has argued for a “no barrier” access to marriage.

But to take up that point, who do you want to impose those barriers? I’ve certainly heard of movements by state governments to make divorce a lot harder to get (I believe those have proved somewhat controversial). Many denominations (or individual clergy) have also instituted specific requirements before a couple may be married.

If this is not sufficent for you, what do you think would be better? Stricter federal requirements? Or barriers at the state level? What sort of barriers–people have to take a class? Sign a waiver? Pay a larger fee? Or do you think society should just be all around “less supportive” or less happy for engaged couples? I don’t get what you’re advocating.

And won’t somebody please think of all the people who would be out of a job if it weren’t for weddings? DJs and florists and bakers and caterers and photographers, for all love!

Right, but he kept trying. Sure, Samuel Johnson famously said second marriages are “the triumph of hope over experience,” but that’s not necessarily a bad thing; the triumph of hope over experience is what keeps the human race going. That’s why, after five years of dating women who turned out to be immature, crazy, and/or just fucking mean, I kept getting up and putting on deodorant every day, until I met my fiancee. (Not that I’ve stopped freshening the pits now, I should make clear.)

I was with an ex of mine for nearly six years. We lived together, had joint checking accounts, signed leases, got pets, etc.; i.e., we were married in everything but law. And while I can now look back on a lot of that experience and shudder, the occasional good parts taught me just how wonderful a committed, monogamous (or so I believed at the time) relationship can be for one’s soul, one’s sense of well-being. That’s why I’m ready to get into another one; that’s why people keep getting married.

Honestly, I don’t think cultural pressure alone is enough to make so many people want to mate for life; I think that over thousands of generations that drive has become hard-wired into us. It doesn’t seem to make much sense from an evolutionary standpoint; wouldn’t we pass on our genes more effectively if we just screwed everything that moved? Well, sure, but there’s the matter of our children passing on their (our) genes as well; I think there’s an issue of stability in child-rearing that’s got an evolutionary hand in there as well. (Disclaimer: IANSJG (Stephen Jay Gould). But I’ve read some of his books.)

Granted: Beatles songs and Meg Ryan movies can inculcate insanely unrealistic expectations of marriage, but that’s because the true value of a good, loving relationship isn’t the kind of good that makes for good entertainment; it’s the value of a solid, trustworthy platform from which to view the world, and that’s impossible to overstate.

P.S. Sorry about the “jackass” comment; I got a little overheated. Pax.

Jackelope–Pax right back atcha (it was the skidmarks comment that got to you, huh?) This is a pretty hot topic, judging from some of the sound and fury it’s engendered, so it’s understandable how you got a little cranky. Let me take up your moon analogy: I think NASA felt pretty confident that Apollo would get to the moon. They weren’t saying, “Hmmmm, best guess is it’s about 50/50. Okay, what the hell, let’s go for it.”

It is precisely statistics that allowed them to think they had taken all reasonable precautions against disaster, probably well over 90% assurance (by their standards, whatever they used). Which is all I’m calling for here, imposing a high degree of certainty on marriage before we call a “GO!” What’s “high”? I’m not sure, but certainly we’re operating on a low level right now, to judge from the divorce statistics.

Of which: keturah seems to think I’m basing my argument on statistics alone, so if they’re flawed, my whole idea is invalid, but as I keep saying, getting into a specific stat is beside the point. There’s just too much divorce, by almost anyone’s standard. Do you want to argue that the divorce rate is totally okay? You’d better open your own thread in GD for that one–I suspect you’ll get some opposition there. If not, then we agree that people are getting divorces at an unhealthy and undesirable rate. I’m trying to figure what can be done about this unhealthy rate, and one of the solutions I’ve lit on involves dialling back our society’s blanket approval of every ill-conceived marriage someone can propose on three seconds’ notice.

As to “undivorced”: I just mean that I consider the failure rate for marriage to be much higher than simply the divorce rate, since divorce is merely a drastic solution to the problem of unhappy marriages, most of which don’t end in divorce. They go on, with the two people reconciling themselves to misery–whether from stubbornness, or desperation, or a sense of honor, or a sense of duty, or for the kids’ sake, or just from a philosophical acceptance of “I made my bed, now I have to lie in it.” Maybe the true divorce rate, when you take into account all the serial marriers, is as low as 33% . But I contend that there are probably at least that many people in enduring marriages that they regret.

Now as to what I’m proposing be done: Not much. Certainly I’m not suggesting that the state step in and start imposing IQ tests, required counseling, psychological profiling, income checks or anything else on people before they get married. But society can have powerful effects. Take, for example, the disapproval we as a society doled out onto people who had a child outside of wedlock, and the lengths pregnant women went to a few decades ago to keep the dark, shameful secret from their families and friends. That shame no longer exists today, and very few women would even consider doing the least that their pregnant counterparts did in the past. Why? Because society no longer dishes out that disapproval.

Well, in the same sense, I wish we would cast some disapproval onto young people getting married today. Something more like “You’re getting marrried? Oh, dear. Well, good luck” than the “You’re getting married! Oh, joy! Oh, rapture! Good for you! Let’s leave work early so I can call up everyone I know and share the good tidings! Let me give you a gift, I’m so happy I could shit” etc.-type response that is routine.

That would be a start, but I think social pressure can work far-reaching effects.

Now, for the dog-pilers: you may commence the counterattack (citing me for inventing the 33% divorce rate stat, making up hypothetical quotes reacting to wedding announcement, and being a whining, self-pitying, embittered wretch peeing on your wedding parade)—NOW!!!

Didn’t mean to ignore your point. The wedding took place on a pier, with no bathrooom in sight, and every expectation (for over an hour) that the wedding march would begin in a few seconds.

If the hypothetical “failure rate” for marriage takes into account both the marriages that have ended in divorce and the marriages where at least one partner is seriously unhappy about being married, then I think we should have a sort of subcategory of failure rate - call it the “abject failure rate”. This would encompass relationships where at least one of the parties really, really wishes he or she had never gone through with the whole marriage thing in the first place and would, if given the opportunity to go back in time to the morning of the wedding, leap in front of the officiant screaming, “Noooooooooooooo!”

I’m sure there are lots of these - marriages that went horribly from the beginning, abusive relationships, marriages where one partner did something bad enough or the split was bitter enough that it outweighed all the good that had ever come from the relationship. But are all failed marriages really abject failures? I really don’t think so - not all people loathe their ex-spouses with the fire of a thousand suns, after all, and a lot of good things can happen in a marriage before it goes sour. And of those that are abject failures, how many would still have been abject failures, as relationships, if the participants hadn’t married, but had continued to date? Your long-term boy/girlfriend can leave you for your best friend, beat you, cheat on you and give you a painful venereal disease, screw up your finances, or destroy your self esteem without the benefit of a legal bond. Sure, it can definitely be worse if there are formal ties that have to be severed to get out of a bad situation, but any couple that’s together for a long time will have a lot of work to do to sort everything out in the event of a separation, married or not - living arrangements, finances, pets, appliances, sometimes offspring - and reluctance to deal with all that can keep people in a relationship they don’t like as well.

So anyway. I think what we really want is the rate of relationships that people regret ever having, but would NOT regret if they hadn’t entered into a legal union, or who regret it a lot more because of the legal aspect. If that number’s really high, then marriage probably is a bad bet and a silly idea. However, I doubt that it is.

Even if marriage were outlawed, people would still make commitments to each other, they’d still make babies together, they’d still live together, and they’d still say stupid things like, “I’ll love you until I die.”

And break-ups would still be excruciatingly painful, especially if the break-up was one-sided.

We have a biological need for companionship because we are sexual beings. We can change the mores of our culture by redefining “marriage” but we’ll never turn off our attraction to each other and the desire to publicly rejoice that attraction by committing to each other.

You’d have more success beating your head against the wall than to try and convince people not to become senselessly attracted to each other.

Elfbabe–that’s a good way to look at it.

Honest it is, and I’m not trying to be smarmy, but that’s a neat series of subdivisions:

  1. Happy, successful marriages
  2. marriages that often suck, but are mostly tolerable or better
  3. marriages that suck but stay intact
  4. marriages that reallly suck hairy moose cock but still stay together
  5. really scary, abusive marriages that technically don’t end in divorce but no one can think of a single reason why
  6. marriages that end not in divorce but in the losing of one or more partner’s sanity
  7. relatively peaceful divorces
  8. divorces in which at least one partner is able to be okay after a couple of years
  9. nasty divorces, with child custody issues, lingering rancor, and a burning pain in your heart for life
  10. same as 9) with felonies tossed in

Of the ten subdivisions, the largest single one is category 1) thus demonstrating that of the ten likeliest outcomes of getting married, the most likely one is a happy, successful marriage.

PunditLisa, I don’t think outlawing marriage would accomplish a damned thing. I think our culture needs to change in far more subtle (and pervasive) ways than simply legislating stuff.

Oh, and [PunditLisa, there’s no reason I can’t BOTH try to dissuade people from getting married AND bang my head against the wall, is there? It feels so good when I stop.

How do you think our culture needs to subtley, pervasively change? And would that change have spared you the pain of the break up of the relationship that ended so badly?

Pseudo, I could tell you horror stories about what happens to people who keep banging their heads against walls. Yet I hold my tongue because I realize that my sagacious advice would be given in vain. Why would you listen to ME, she who has banged her head before you and who has personal knowledge of the downside – the concussions, the horribly denting of the skull, the hair follicle damage. Oh no. You just smile that half smile, a mixture of amusement and thinly veiled pity, and continue banging your head against the wall, all the time thinking that YOUR head banging will be a good thing, a lasting bang, an eternal joy.

“Small steps, Sparks.” Let’s begin by consciously putting less pressure on our kids than our parents put on us to get married and have a family.

When I was very young I had an aunt (who spoke with a thick Russian accent) who comforted me by assuring me that “Von day, you vill grow opp and get merde and forget all abot zis.”

I’m sure she was trying to be nice, but I was given the impression that getting merde (as if I didn’t have enough merde) was the key to happiness. I’m equally sure that message was communicated to many of us while growing up.

You can bet that’s one bit of comfort my kids will never hear.

Excuse me, I hear the wall calling to my head again.

Well, actually, sort of, yes.

I absolutely agree that there are a lot of ill-advised marriages going on; we’ve probably all had the experience of sitting through a ceremony (for which you bought the cheapest gift you could get away with) and mentally placing bets on how long the blessed union is going to last. But the high divorce rate is also an indicator of something good: The high marriage rate. Aren’t you cheered even slightly by the sheer optimism that makes so many people keep trying?

People seek happiness in many, many ways; at least marriage has a chance of actually making the participants happy, unlike philandering or sleeping with married men or serial killing.

So yes, the divorce rate seems very high, but I don’t think divorce is necessarily the absolute evil you’re presenting; I think it’s more an acknowledgement that, while one tried to do something good, it just didn’t work. But there’s simply no way to know ahead of time whether it’ll work or not; no computer program, no amount of counseling, no Miss Cleo can predict it. People have to keep jumping in and trying it. It’s messy sometimes, and doesn’t always work, but when it does work it’s wonderful.

I do see your point, but I think you’re a little too harsh on the institution in general. And putting a warning about divorce stats in the ceremony itself would just be pointless pessimism: not just unhelpful, but actually detrimental. By the time the actual ceremony is taking place, it’s too late for warnings, and you just have to put your game face on and wish them many happy returns of the day. Sometimes the ones that work are the ones you expect to fail.

Granted, sometimes the ones that fail are the ones you expected to fail, too. But that’s my point; there’s no way to predict it. There are certain strong indicators (Do we want kids? Slugabed or early riser? Letterman or Leno?), but in the end it’s the pursuit of happiness, not happiness itself, that we can control.

Sorry to ramble on so; I have the feeling of circling my point without actually nailing it down. Hope it’s in there somewhere.

pseudo

Don’t blame the minister for the stupid speech. I got married in the Ethical Culture Society, ad our minister was heavily driven by the stuff we told him. We also started on time. I practically pulled people out of their motel rooms to make sure!

The important part of the vow has nothing to do with eternity, but rather with the sickness and in health part. I’d bet every marriage is an unhappy marriage at some point. You can have a fast food marriage, where if things aren’t great in 3 minutes you split, or a roast marriage, where you work for the long run. I’m not saying that people should stay together no matter what, but that sometimes things just suck.

You’ve also got to decide you’re happier together than apart. We never lived closer than 600 miles away from each other, and broke up frequently before we got married. If we took bets on how long our marriage would have lasted on our wedding day, we would have cleaned up. It’s been 26 years, and I don’t see any signs of problems. Oh, and no counseling.

BTW, we just went to our daughter’s college graduation, and none of the speakers felt the need to say that many of the class would probably be unemployed some day.

That’s okay, I just bought dinner and the waitress forgot to tell me I might get food poisoning. Then I got into the elvator and the person riding up with me neglected to discuss the possibility of the cables snapping.

Crazy day, huh?

I would have got up and gone to find a restroom anyway. If she can be rude enough to leave all her guests waiting like that, I’d have no hesitation about the minor rudeness of quietly leaving for the bathroom.