Please change the Pit tagline [New Pit Rules]

[Maus_Magill]

@Maus_Magill

I always thought the Pit was a bit of a release valve which kept the rest of the board civil. If it does become “Solar-Powered Electric Smoker,” then that leaves the nonny boards as a place to vent, which I would imagine would be even more disruptive to the boards as a whole.

Now that I’ve had a chance to actually read the new rules, I find I agree with most of them. However two stand out:

No abusive remarks directed at other posters

Don’t direct obscenities or vulgarities at other posters - this includes everything from “fuck you” on up. If you don’t like another poster, you’re free to make that plain. That doesn’t mean you can say anything you want. Creative insults are permitted; crude vituperation is not. We’ll be the judge of what constitutes abuse.

Shodan articulated my concerns better than I could have, but I’ll try. If someone were to royally piss me off, would calling that poster an ass be considered an insult or an abusive remark?

No complaints about SDMB administration in the Pit

All comments or complaints about SDMB administration should go in the About This Message Board forum, not in the Pit. Pitting of SDMB staff is permitted for views they express as ordinary posters.

When I read this, I was reminded of Ari Fleischer warning Americans to “watch what they do and what they say.” I rarely disagree with any mod action that I’ve seen, but I do like knowing that if I were to disagree, I have the opportunity to express it.

[Jack_Batty]

Is there an over/under on who’ll be the first to commit suicide-banning by “Fuck You” yet?

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@mhendo

But see, Arnold, one of the reasons people come here is precisely because it’s not work, or school, or church. It’s not like the whole SDMB is rife with personal insults; they were confined specifically to the Pit

I know that. As a matter of fact, if you dig far enough in ATMB, you will see that (even when I was a moderator) I was on record as saying that I thought that the SDMB would be better without the Pit.

and i tend to agree with those who have argued that having this release valve was an important reason that the rest of the forums generally remained so civil and on-topic.

And I disagree with those. I get into disagreements at work (and at church, and at my non-profit group) all the time - sometimes pretty heated disagreements. And you know what? We don’t insult each other, and we till manage to work with each other civilly once the disagreement is resolved. Because we’re adults.

If you don’t want to join in with that shit, no problem; you can ignore the Pit, or at very least leave the hotter, more vitriolic threads, to those of us who want them.

This argument is: “we should have it because some people will enjoy it. If you don’t like it, avoid it.” That can apply to anything. To use an analogy (analogies are always a good way to have the conversation degenerate into minutiae of what constitutes a proper analogy - one of this board’s favourite pastimes!), we could have a pornography forum. I’m sure that will bring in paying customers. I’m sure there are plenty of other things we can have here. But the board can survive just fine without those things.

[Giraffe]

@Arnold_Winkelried

I posted this in another thread, but I like the sound of my own voice so much that I’ll repeat it here. I for one am perfectly able to disagree with people without calling them assholes or telling them to eat shit.

You referenced a post of mine in the other thread, so I’d like to comment from the other side. The reason I’ve disagreed with this change so strongly is not because I think there’s such a sacred value in telling someone to go fuck a dead goat. My reasons are more pragmatic (I think):

1. People have widely varying views on obscenity and vulgarity. For some people, strong language is just an expression of disagreement or disgust. I think those people will accidentally run afoul of the new rules rather often.

2. Tone and intent play a role in what is obscene. Saying “heh, you’re such an asshole sometimes” in response to teasing seems far less obscene to me than “I had sex with your mother and ejaculated in her hair,” even though the latter contains no swear words. Crudeness is another issue: can you tell someone they have a small penis? Can you call someone a penis? A penis face? A vagina face?

I think there are going to be a million gray areas with this rule and it will be very hard to moderate them all impartially and not let one’s feelings toward the posters involved play a role in one’s decisions.

3. My biggest concern is the power imbalance this is going to give short-term guests who aren’t as worried about banning as long-time posters. Say a guest goads a long-time poster with a string of filthy insults. While the poster should know to just report the post and wait for mod action, it’s human nature to get angry and react in kind. Both get warned, guest wanders off, long time poster eventually collects too many warnings and gets banned. Trolls and socks will have a lot more power when reactions to their trolling draw warnings.

These are all hypotheticals of course, most of which will never affect the majority of posters here, but the atmosphere of uncertainty they create should not be ignored.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@SoulFrost

Sure you can. You just won’t get paid anymore.

And you can sling insults in the Pit. You just won’t be able to post anymore. Boy, that was easy!

[Loach]

@Arnold_Winkelried

And you can sling insults in the Pit. You just won’t be able to post anymore. Boy, that was easy!

Fantastic solution. Does Disney have a message board?

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Loach

So you want to turn the Dope into work? I like not having to act like I’m at work here.

No. I like the fact that I can discuss things here that I never would at work (e.g. is beastiality worse than killing animals for food? Is it wrong to use the word fuck in public, or is that just a silly rule? Should prostitution be legal?) These are all things that I can’t do at work that I can do here. Being mindful of how you interact with other people without screaming insults at them is what people should be doing In Real Life and carrying that behaviour over to the SDMB should be no hardship. If it is a hardship for you to disagree with someone without the profanity, then as I said somewhere else, I don’t think the problem lies in the Pit rules.

[Jenaroph]

Here is an example of why I disagree.

This is one of the board’s most popular threads of all time. Classic snark, it’s named without fail any time somebody posts a “What’s the funniest/best thread on the SDMB?” thread.

It is also contains many completely vulgar insults against a poster and would result in at least a warning under today’s rules.

I’m sure other posters can find many more examples of classic threads that would be big trouble if they were posted now.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

Giraffe: all your objections could apply equally well to the “don’t call a poster an idiot” or “don’t call a poster a liar” rules in GD (I forget, maybe the “no calling someone a liar” rule is gone in GD, I’ll have to check.) And yet GD survived for many years with those rules.

[Jack_Batty]

@Arnold_Winkelried

Being mindful of how you interact with other people without screaming insults at them is what people should be doing In Real Life and carrying that behaviour over to the SDMB should be no hardship.

So the SDMB is now our collective life coach. Forgive me if that doesn’t fill me with a sense of gratitude.

[Bootis]

@Arnold_Winkelried

If the government told me that, sure. But the SDMB is not the government. Most of my waking hours are spent at work. At work we have a rule that I can’t tell one of my colleagues “I hope you get sodomized with a rusty chainsaw.” You know what, I’ve never felt oppressed at work (at least for that reason - I have plenty of other reasons for felling oppressed at work! )

Just as the SD isn’t government, though, it also isn’t work. Much more different IMO, as the ‘employees’ of the SD are writing the paychecks

Anyway, the rules for this community have been established for a long time. To change the rules suddenly - specifically if the change is in the ballpark of speech freedoms on a very liberal and libertarian board will obviously piss a lot of people off.Doing so without a proper explanation, and then accusing people of being impatient (not Arnold Winkelried , I don’t think) for demanding that explanation, is, well, odd.

[Loach]

@Arnold_Winkelried

No. I like the fact that I can discuss things here that I never would at work (e.g. is beastiality worse than killing animals for food? Is it wrong to use the word fuck in public, or is that just a silly rule? Should prostitution be legal?) These are all things that I can’t do at work that I can do here. Being mindful of how you interact with other people without screaming insults at them is what people should be doing In Real Life and carrying that behaviour over to the SDMB should be no hardship. If it is a hardship for you to disagree with someone without the profanity, then as I said somewhere else, I don’t think the problem lies in the Pit rules.

I appreciate that you are much more evolved than me. By the way, when you were management how often did you notice me flaming anyone?

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Loach

Fantastic solution. Does Disney have a message board?

I don’t know, but if they do, go check it out and see if they allow discussions on politics, death penalty, abortion, etc.

[FarmerChick]

@Arnold_Winkelried

I posted this in another thread, but I like the sound of my own voice so much that I’ll repeat it here. I for one am perfectly able to disagree with people without calling them assholes or telling them to eat shit. I have no problem with the new Pit rules. It’s the rules I live with in my day-to-day interactions with people all day: at work, at school, at church, at my non-profit group meetings, in public, etc.

And the Moral Majority rides in on his high horse and saves the Pit from sliding into the Den of Iniquity with rainbows and flowers and unicorns…

[mhendo]

@Arnold_Winkelried

I know that. As a matter of fact, if you dig far enough in ATMB, you will see that (even when I was a moderator) I was on record as saying that I thought that the SDMB would be better without the Pit.

Shrug.

The fact that your opinion is now in line with Board rules doesn’t make it any less silly.

[Richard_Parker]

@Arnold_Winkelried

Giraffe: all your objections could apply equally well to the “don’t call a poster an idiot” or “don’t call a poster a liar” rules in GD (I forget, maybe the “no calling someone a liar” rule is gone in GD, I’ll have to check.) And yet GD survived for many years with those rules.

I disagree. There is some ambiguity with charges of lying or idiocy, but it’s not even close to the ambiguity surrounding what is obscene or vulgar.

[Tranquilis]

sigh

Mediocraty, here we come. Then comes irrelevance, and then death.

SDMB, it’s been nice knowin’ ya.

[Gadarene]

Giraffe: all your objections could apply equally well to the “don’t call a poster an idiot” or “don’t call a poster a liar” rules in GD (I forget, maybe the “no calling someone a liar” rule is gone in GD, I’ll have to check.) And yet GD survived for many years with those rules.

…Because the Pit existed as a safety valve. Really, Arnold.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Jack_Batty

So the SDMB is now our collective life coach. Forgive me if that doesn’t fill me with a sense of gratitude.

Just out of curiosity - did it put a crimp in your lifestyle that you couldn’t insult a poster in GQ? Or that you couldn’t issue death threats against another poster in the Pit? Was that too much nannying for you?

[SoulFrost]

@Arnold_Winkelried

And you can sling insults in the Pit. You just won’t be able to post anymore. Boy, that was easy!

You wanna tell that to the people who pay money to post there?