Noted.
Umm… Remember the advice you gave me in an IM a few weeks ago? Seems you should perhaos take that to heart for yourself.
Dude, I feel like I made it clear that that’s the impression. Believe me, I’ve gone back and read *plenty * of my posts trying to figure this out. Again, I’d appreciate specific quotes if you feel the inclination.
Again, specifics?
Well, no one has given me anything specific to apologize for, and I feel like I’ve made a general apology. But that feels kinda hollow.
How about this: A Cafe Society thread entitled “Unenjoyably Pretentious Movies” in which several people posted about movies they found pretentious. The examples included Lost Highway, Pi, The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, Her Lover, Altered States, etc. Your first post to this lively thread was
Of course this hijacked the thread for a few pages while we all called you a jerk for “pitying” us our meager intellect and insinuating were were the types of moviegoers that like crap like “Little Nicky.” Finally you started in on your whole “I didn’t mean it like that” schtick that you’ve included in your OP.
Or this: So indignant at Reeder’s “one-thread about Bush” policy, you started this thread, in which you more or less insulted everyone who starts a Pit thread on a topic that you deem unworthy to show that Reeder’s many,many Pit threads have just as much right to be there. Then, apparently unsatisfied with that effort, you started this one three days later. In the latter you even refused to acknowledge that you were in any way parodying what you deemed to be silly Pit threads, nor your larger point about Reeder’s one-thread rule. Can you honestly say that you don’t “come across” as an asshole in these threads?
And of course there’s my first encounter with you: Manhattan is a fuckwad, and Microsoft can suck my dick in which, knowing full well that I was an MS employee, threw in comments like these:
The first sentence was patently untrue, since I did try to help you in your original GQ thread, and all I said that could be construed as pouty was that I agreed with Cerowyn that the best way to get an answer to a GQ question about my product doesn’t include using the word “Microsuck.”
The third sentence was pure trolling, which resulted in Manhattan warning you that if you ever posted in a technical thread again, you’d be banned. Your response to Manhattan’s warning - your direct response to a Mod warning:
Aside from these quotes, there’s plenty of you treating everyone like a fool for not recognizing your “obvious hyperbole” as well as plenty more insinuating that if I took anything personally out of that thread, I had “issues.” How you can possibly believe that you did not “come across” as an asshole in that thread is beyond me.
Re-read Miller’s post again - it’s more or less how I know feel about you. I’m not so myopic that I can’t get over that MS thread - everybody says things in the heat of the moment. But it made me remember your name, and when I see you doing it again and again - well, what would you have us do - print out this OP so that when you do it again we can remind ourselves that you don’t really mean to come across as an asshole? Or how about just reel it in a little, or throw in a “this is hyperbole” in there somewhere? (And not a “hey morons this is obviously hyperbole”)
You want some specifics, so here they are. I’d rather not get into this specific fight again. I’m more than happy to consider it water under the bridge if you are. But since you want to know, this thread is the one where I first started to really consider you an asshole.
This comes across as very condescending. By not directly adressing Wumpus’s arguments, you seem to be saying, “It’s there because I say it is, and I know lots about movies, so that should be good enough for you.” It an Appeal to Authority with yourself as the authority. That’s pretty arrogant.
This comes across as whiney. You posted a topic to a debating forum, and then complain when the other side of the debate shows up. This is not something that’s going to earn you a whole lot of credibility points. I don’t care what you’re debating, you can’t expect (let alone demand) that certain viewpoints not participate. And if you’re going to champion an underdog like Verhoeven, you’ve got to expect a lot of opposition. If you don’t want a lot of opposition, don’t take up the standard for an unpopular opinion.
This was directed at me, personally, and I resent the hell out of it. It’s a blatant mispreresentation of my arguments in that thread, which had been made in good faith and with an interest in hearing the opposite viewpoint.
The Pit Thread that was spawned by that thread was not exactly your shining moment, either. There were plenty of people in that one who were more than happy to tell you why they thought you were an asshole, if you’re up to re-reading it.
lissener Why do you think I’m an asshole?
someone else Well, the pitting yourself thing is pretty annoying.
a wiser voice Hey, relax, Lissener.
lissener No, I think it’s justified. What’s your problem with me?
someone else Well, you’re a bit irritating…
a wiser voice Chill out, Lissener.
lissener When am I irritating?
someone else Well, there were those threads in Cafe Society involving x, y, z.
a wiser voice Take a breather, Lissener.
lissener When were those?
someone else And there was that other time you were irritating
lissener I want specifics!
I think that stems from the fact that lissener seems to take any such disagreement as a direct insult against him rather than just a differing opinion.
I refer you to Eve’s
Mullholland Drive thread wherein he explains that someone saying they think a movie he likes is crap, or has no redeeming qualities is akin to calling him a liar or delusional. He can be quite insulting when “defending” himself against said non-attack.
I’m pretty neutral about you. Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I disagree with you. The same thing could be said about anyone else on this board. It’s not meant as an insult, but in a community as large as SDMB, you aren’t going to see eye to eye with everyone every time.
That being said, threads such as this have a tendency to push fence-straddlers off to the unfavorable side.
You would do well to ask that this thread be closed, pull the plug on your PC, and enjoy the weekend.
Missteps appear to be forgiven quite easily around here, and past “faults” do not seem to be held against someone if a “change” is made.
I’m reluctant to do this, because I unfairly* jumped Zebra’s shit for something similar, but since you asked…
You have a truly irritating habit of talking down to people. You tend to formulate your opening arguments as if anyone who disagrees with you must be mentally deficient, and you continue the discussion in the same manner.
Again, I want to emphasize that you aren’t the worst offender in this area. There are posters here who are much, much worse about this. I can’t even go into Great Debates any more, because inside of fifteen minutes I want to reach through the screen and push somebody’s face in. Not because I disagree with their positions, necessarily, but because they’re just so damned obnoxious.
Some people, of any political stripe, just don’t seem to understand that there is room for political differences between intelligent people, and conduct themselves accordingly. Instead I see a lot of “you must be too stupid to understand.” It’s not stated outright, but it’s implied. I can’t stand sneering from anybody.
I know how smart I am. I know what it took for me to get a masters degree in engineering. I remember how I had to pick up basic economics and accounting principles on the fly in order to do my job. I get irritated when some dumb 18-year-old twit passing out flyers feels compelled to lecture me about my need to “educate” myself.
I get doubly irritated because I get it from both ends of the political spectrum. The “liberals” think I’m a Nazi Bush-stooge, and the “conservatives” think I’m an evil, baby-murdering communist. They’re both complete fucking idiots, who conform to their respective ideologies with religious fervor, and can’t be swayed by facts. Keep your “truth,” give me the facts and I’ll decide where the truth lies for me.
I guess what irritates me the most is that I see a lot more of this smug supriority from the left, and I’m really afraid that you jerks are underestimating the opposition. I see a lot of statements along the lines of “liberals are smarter and better educated than conservatives” and the complacency disturbs me.
You might want to do a little research; the results will surprise you. A lot of your opponents are a hell of a lot smarter and better informed than you are.
*The guy was just making a harmless joke. I was really pissy that day.
Here’s the problem as I see it – if you want to pit Lib, then go after any one of the multitude of kooky things the guy does on an almost daily basis. It’s not like there’s nothing to work with there. 
The name thing is only a small and rather unimportant indicator of the overall nasty/drive-by/manipulative/crazy/attention-whoring/browbeating/self-important creature we call Libera-whatever.
In short, get a better rant. Cause you’re right about one thing – there are plenty of folks who think Lib is the all-time SDMB asshole title-holder, and with very good reason.
But remember, people have formed this opinion because of the crazy shit he has said – and continues to say almost daily – so there’s really no need to remind folks of his past behavior. He buries his own reputation with every new fuck-up. And oddly, despite numerous friendly words of advice, the weird times just keep on rollin’…
Hey, lissener. I’ve been on the fence about whether or not to reply to this thread, but what the hey.
Let me start out by making one thing clear: I do not think you’re an asshole. I like you.
But I can kind of see why you irritate the hell out of some people.
Dooku gave a pretty good overview of one way in which you have done so. But I’m going to try and explain a different reason, one that I get the impression confuses you.
A quote from your conversation with Miller in Eve’s Mulholland Drive thread:
I understand what you’re saying here. (At least, I think I do.) But the thing is, it’s annoying to people when someone else doesn’t just react to what they say, but tells them what they meant when they said it. (It’s one thing to say, hey, I think that’s insulting, and another to say, you’re insulting me. Artistic interpretation applies to casual driveby messageboard comments, too.)
If someone says “That was crap!” (feel free to substitute “That suxx!” or “Oh, that was awful!” or whatever absolute statement you like) about a work of art you like, there are two general ways you can respond:
-
“You’re insulting me by calling [Good Film X] crap. It’s absolutist and insulting.”
-
“Really? What didn’t you like about it?”
Some people say “that was crap” and really mean, “in my opinion, [Good Film X] was a waste of time.” Some people say “that was crap” and mean “there can be no argument about the inherent lack of merit in [Good Film X].” Thing is, you can’t tell the difference unless you respect them enough to ask. Don’t put words in their mouth or attitudes in their head. Don’t ignore their message by nitpicking the way they choose to express it. Many people are irritated by that. Leads to testiness and bad feelings. It’s like correcting someone’s grammar rather than responding to their argument – trust me, that’s infuriating.
Option 2 – the request for clarification – quickly helps you determine whether or not your conversational partner is really interested in discussing the merits or lack thereof of a film, or if they’re just interested in spouting off. And on a message board, a lot of people are just going to be spouting off. And that’s okay. It’s not an insult to you, to anyone else who liked the film, to the film itself, or its makers. (Even if it is an insult, so what? Let it go. Life’s too short to get huffy about perceived slights.)
Now, I’m just a guy who holds his tongue more often that he posts and doesn’t get involved in big GD-style rumbles. Maybe I’m too timid. But I’d like to see you stick around, and I think to do that you really have to accept that most people here don’t wish you ill.
One rule of thumb on a mailing list I’m on may serve you well: once you’ve made a point, don’t revisit it more than twice. Make an argument, respond to your critics once or twice, then accept that you’ve said what you can and let it go. You’ll be happier, the fires get a chance to die down, and you’ve made what positive impact you can without coming across as a jerk. The SDMB may require more than 3 posts, but not really that many more, I don’t think, unless there’s real dialogue.
Anyway, that’s my $1.08 and counting, I think. One more thing: if “obvious hyperbole” is getting you into trouble, as Dooku notes, don’t just label it. Cut it out. Try to post without it. Challenge yourself to rid your SDMB writing of the rhetorical flourishes that get you into trouble. Be dryer than you feel is necessary, and see where that gets you.
I really would hate to see you go.
Hey, I have nothing against most posters, including you. But my short term memory isn’t so hot.
I do know that postings, like emails and any other words that are written by anyone but professional authors, rarely convey tone unless accompanied by ranting or other obvious emotion. Therefore, one has to be very careful that what one writes cannot be taken a different way. If there is no other way to express it, then a disclaimer may be in order to make sure your intent is clear.
Most (but certainly not all) of my problem posts have been because I thought I was being funny and someone took it the wrong way. As much as I dislike the emoticons, and relish a good turn of phrase, I’ve found that sometimes it’s necessary to insert one of the little bastards, particularly if I’m in a hurry.
Hopefully, this has been constructive for you.
Hell, Chefguy, I’m not a professional author, but I can avoid obvious pitfalls.
I’m an engineer by training, and I managed to avoid mandatory English writing classes in school by passing an entrance exam, which in retrospect may not have been a good thing. Written English is most definitely not my preferred mode of communication, and yet I somehow manage to get by here.
I’m not buying the “lack of clarity” excuse.
Interobang!? is wise. Heed him.
Basically what Miller and Lobsang said. We don’t post on the same threads much, and when we do, it is usually just offering up information to someone. But I remember the Verhoven threads. Gotta stand with Miller here. But you have usually been polite and funny to me, and not assholish at all. Take a break for the weekend. Get out and enjoy the rain. Then come back and realize that movies don’t matter. We can disagree about a movie and not have to care. 
FWIW, I don’t think you’re an asshole. You used to annoy me, and then somewhere along the way, I found myself looking forward to your posts. Especially in Cafe Society. You seem to get under a lot of people’s skin, and I can understand that, but I always find you well informed and educated on the subject matter your discussing. Further, I understand your frustration, and though you do have a “tin ear” for tone, I don’t think you’re out of line.
I do agree with those that said you may want to have both threads closed and take a step back for a bit. And that the next time you pit Lib, post links to all the places he acts like an asshole. We like cites here at the SDMB. They won’t be hard to find.
You know that I don’t think you’re an asshole, but I think you need to seriously consider tatooing this on the inside of your eyelids. Seriously. Really seriously, as in not kidding.
Like my mama always told me, asshole is as asshole does.
Of course, I never did know what the hell that meant.
Oooh, chocolate…