Please tell me why you think I'm an asshole.

Anyone that thinks Verhoven is a good director is an asshole.

Well, not really. But as has been noted, you seem to think anyone that disagrees with your point of view on something as trivial as Verhoven is a stupid putz. You are not really interested in listening to anyone with a different opinion than your own. I think this is the first one of your thread’s I have posted in for a year or so because quite frankly, there’s no point in doing so. You aren’t interested.

And Verhoven really does suck.

I think you and I have the same problem.

We’re stubborn, we’re sarcastic, and we’re all-too-often defensive.

None of which affects the relative merits of our posts, but it does lead to ever-escalating conflicts of more and more aggressive tone.

I don’t get my dander up about many subjects, so it doesn’t happen so often with me… Michael Moore and Issues of Etiquette are two hot-buttons, and I’ve had to threaten my fingers with breakage to keep out of the PETA threads.

But you and I did get into it once in one of the aforementioned “pretentious art movie” threads - though ultimately, I think we resolved that nicely.

The problem was, as others have mentioned, your choice of words suggests that you brook no disagreement. Someone who disagrees with you is portrayed as an ‘attacker’ or as ‘lazy’ or as having “bad” taste in movies. Even the suggestion that someone else “put more effort” into a movie… simply because you yourself did so, can be insulting… perhaps they’ve already put more effort in. Perhaps they’ve seen all the elements you have, but find them valueless in their opinion.

While Mulholland Drive has a lot of cinematic elements that can be objectively identified, labelled, catalogued - the result of those elements as a whole, and the meaning behind them - are subject to interpretation. Just as a for-example.

This is obviously good advice–like the rest of your post–but FWIW, to simultaneously defend myself and agree wholeheartedly, that’s exactly what I feel like when someone says I calling them lazy or stupid: that they’re putting words in my mouth and telling me what I mean, rather than what I actually said. My problem is largely, I think, here on this board, one of perception over intention. Not to say that it’s not my fault; consensus speaks louder than words. But ninety-nine percent of the time, it seems to me, that people bristle at what they perceive behind my words, rather than the words themselves. Again, my fault, because I usually think I’m clever enough to communicate on more than one level, and often mean to imply something–usually with a humorous intent, cept when I’m really pissed off (and then it’s still humorous, ridicule-like)–and hoping that everyone will interpret my “layers” exactly as I intend them too is pretty arrogant on the face of it, unless you’re James Joyce or Kate Bush. Anyway, this is meant more as an elucidation and agreement, and not so much as a defense.

Miller, I did become very angry in that Verhoeven thread, which on rereading still seems mercilessly and maliciously hijacked by arrogant nosethumbers–a serious discussion is quite literally impossible on these boards because no matter how civil you are, you WILL be shouted down and hounded closed by Heinlein fans–but my first polite request that the raspberries be, please, saved for a different thread followed such drivebys as “[RikWriter:] Verhoeven is a talentless hack who isn’t worth considering, much less reconsidering.” My initial responses to you were as considered and measured as your own initial contributions. But when people started trumpeting that they had every right to shout down the debate because it was a public board, and my polite request was dishonestly portrayed as my dictating the content of the thread, rather than a simple friendly appeal–not a demand–well yeah, I lost it. Of the regrettable things I’ve done on this boards, that’s near the top. I still feel *emotionally * justified, but I did not handle it right.

Which brings me to the whole bristling at my suggesting a little effort thing; Verhoeven naysayers, for example, interpreting that as an accusation of laziness (putting words in my mouth). As I mentioned recently in another thread, all I mean by that is: this film required a lot of effort on *my * part to reach the understanding, such as it is, that I’m trying to explain. That a concerted *effort * might be more revealing than a cursory glance. There’s nothing at all arrogant, condescending, or accusatory in that. At ALL. It took more work than most films for me; maybe more work on your part would be rewarding. I never suggest that, having seen it once, you SHOULDA GOT IT, and you’re stupid if you didn’t. NEVER. Again, my fault because the response is not unique to any one person.

Dooku, I thought I had acknowledged that calling Microsofties names if I expected their help was stupid. If not, I apologize. In any case, it never occurred to me that a 'Softie would respond; I was picturing legions of people like me who were equally frustrated and had found workarounds to the problem that was frustrating me. In my work with a Seattle radio station, I have come in contact with many, many 'Softies, and have never had any kind of prejudice toward any particular individual. I’m sure that if I met BillG, I’d have a more personal regard for him than I do now. The frustration I expressed was with the collective monolith known as Microsoft (or, in Seattle, as The Evil Empire). Still, it was inappropriate for GQ. My reaction to Manhattan had its own history: it seemed pretty clear to me that he was singling me out for petty bully type treatment; he’s a bigger asshole than I can ever hope to be. :stuck_out_tongue:

And come on, I was really proud of this piece of writing.

Really? What don’t you like about him?
:smiley:

Is this the right room for an argument?

Um… his use of camera angles!

Seriously, I ain’t going down that path again. I think lissener’s biggest fault in that thread was in the thread title. By labeling it “Reconsidering Verhoven” it sounded like an open invitation for us Verhoven haters to come into the thread so lissener could try to convince us of the error of our ways. It was also falsely hoped that perhaps lissener would reconsider his own views of the director. A debate was to be expected but apparently that wasn’t what lissener wanted. He wanted a Verhoven fan thread not a debate on the merits of the director. These mismatched expectations lead to more animosity than one would expect to find in a film thread. It was this thread that made me decide to steer clear of all lissener threads in the future because I figured he wasn’t interested in things posters with dissenting views had to say anyway so why waste his or my time?

Perhaps a clearer understanding of what he wants in his OP could help. He is also guilty, as others have pointed out, of not letting something go. But as I’m grumbling about a fucking ancient thread he started, you’re not going to see me give him any grief on that point!

I really don’t have a problem with lissener thinking Verhoven is great. He’s just wrong.

Pretty much the definition of an asshole:

  1. Sarcasm is DEFINED as “biting irony.” You can’t be sarcastic without hurting people. Hurting people on purpose is BEING an asshole;

  2. Carrying on an argument when everyone else just wants to drop it and agree to disagree is BEING an asshole – there’s not a non-asshole way to do it;

  3. Losing your temper one in a while is OK; doing it routinely is BEING an asshole.

You apparently expect people not to mind; you apparently think that if the thought of being an asshole isn’t foremost in your mind, if you’re not making an extra effort to be especially obnoxious, then you’re not being an asshole. WRONG! If you have adopted, as your normal mode of expression, language and manners that annoy, irritate, and even hurt other people, then you’re being an asshole, regardless of your intentions. If you do it constantly, then you’re not just BEING an asshole, you ARE an asshole. I’m not going to crunch the numbers to find out which you are.

The good news is that you can repair your reputation; you just need to shut up for a while, make some nice, informative, helpful posts, and stay out of GD, IMHO, and the Pit entirely. Then people will just say “Lissener can be a real asshole” (which is an improvement), and then “Lissener used to be kind of an asshole.”

Don’t let it get you down; I was a REAL asshole when I first got here, and now I think it’s nearly a year since I got warned by a Mod. It just takes time. And there are plenty of assholes I like and respect (most of the time). Collounsbury, for example (and look how he ended up :dubious: ).

P.S.
Looking (on preview) at the Verhoeven post, that’s part of the problem right there. If you don’t see that you are responsible for ALL of the logical corollaries of your statements, you’ll just have to take everyone’s word for it. When you say “I arrived at this position by making an effort when watching the film,” it’s hard NOT to take that as “All it takes to agree with me is some effort when looking at the film,” which is the same thing as “You don’t agree with me because you’re lazy.” If P, then Q; not-Q, therefore not-P. One may question the definition of lazy as “unwilling to make an effort,” but I think it works for most people (and is obviously working for those who found your argument insulting).

Well, now this is a good example of what I was talking about. Writing is only part of the problem. Reading is the other part. If you read my post carefully (or even casually, in my opinion), you would see that I’m not offering a defense, only advice that may be helpful. I’m not asking you or anyone else to “buy” anything. I was speaking directly to Lissener.

Now I could choose to see your posting as both defensive and argumentative, and engage in a pointless bickering session, but I choose instead to think you misunderstood my intent and aren’t trying to pick a fight.

lissener, my friend! Let me weigh in on the “definitely don’t think you’re an asshole” side of the survey. You and I got into a fairly unpleasant scrap some time ago. . . about The Birds, I think it was. . .and I’m fairly certain that any snide or condescending behavior on your part wasn’t simply answered by my own, but quite possibly prompted by my own. But I think you’re close to the answer regarding people’s hostile reactions when you speak of what you mean to express and the tone people think they’re picking up.
My guess is that 80% of the dogfights you get into here wouldn’t remotely occur in a face-to-face exhange, the Internet, sadly, only serving to filter much of the half-joking or (possibly?) “winking” aspect to many of your comments.

For instance, the example someone cited above in the Pretentious Movies thread. I would’ve taken your what’s-wrong-with-you-people type reply as simple ribbing, the kind friends exchange all the time. (“Michael Bay a visionary, what are you, on crack?” That kinda thing.) Obviously, others here. . . didn’t pick that up.

I also believe -what, do I have no work to do today?- that your past conflicts make people ready to pounce the moment they detect sarcasm or anything droll creeping into a post of yours: “Right- go ahead jerkweed, post something snide. Whomp, there it is!” So I think other folks, from time to time, could take a breath and measure what they’re reading a little more closely, too. This way we can all grow. HAHAHAHA. No, seriously. :dubious:

Apology accepted and understood, and good on you. I hope most Dopers agree with me that as long as we can recognize when we have misspoken and can take responsibility for our occasional misdeeds, all can be forgiven.

I certainly have with you, and look forward to seeing you around Cafe Society.

Because when you’re confronted with strong evidence that you’re factually wrong in an argument, you turn around and accuse your opponents of being morally equivalent to racists and antisemites. I didn’t have much of an opinion about you before this thread, but Jesus Christ, that’s some assholery right there.

Daniel

I wonder if starting a vanity thread with a question in the negative qualifies as assholery in and of itself? Maybe a topic for debate at some future juncture when protocols for posting plainly posit posturing poseurs (is the plosive repetition overdone, ya think?).

But that is so not what was happening in that thread! You had a polite discussion going! It wasn’t until you got upset about people bringing up Heinlein and demanding that people not post that it went to pieces. Instead of (and I apologize for the insulting term, but I think it’s apt) pouting about people comparing the movie to the book, you could have just explained why you don’t think it’s a valid criticism. Or you could have just ignored them! There were plenty of people in the thread who were criticizing the movie on it’s own merits, you could have simply addressed all your posts to them.

There were precisely two such driveby’s: RikWriter’s and Diane’s. That’s out of a total of seventy-eight posts. That’s hardly being “shouted down.” Hell, I wish I’d had that sort of ratio of content-to-drive-by when Lost in Translation was the film du jour. And, Jesus, it’s not even like they were posted by anyone worth noticing in the first place. 99% of RikWriter’s posts are drive-bys like that. The man hasn’t yet made a worthwhile post in Cafe Society. Just ignore him: he’s not worth the blood pressure. Or, if you can’t, Pit him. I might even help. But lashing out like that at people who have been participating in good faith because you’ve been annoyed by one or two assholes is, itself, assholish.

Even keeping in mind your stated intent, going back and looking at those posts, I can’t interpret them as either friendly or polite. I’m not honestly sure that it would be possible to phrase a request like that in a way that was not rude: the request itself is pretty insulting.

It’s not that this is necessarily wrong, it’s just not really the sort of thing you should say in a polite debate. If someone is taking the time to debate you, I think the proper courtesy is to assume that they’ve put as much effort into the film as you have. Even if you’re 100% certain they haven’t, you shouldn’t come out and say so unless you’re looking to be antagonistic, becuase there’s really not any other way to take a comment like that. No matter how politely worded and well-intentioned, it’s still very patronizing.

I usually don’t pay any attention to who writes what beyond the extent that I’m repling to them or I’m actively engaged in a back and forth with them. Once the conversation ends, they drift back into the crowd. It’s very rare that someone catches my notice often enough that I will develop any opinion about them, good or bad.

I have no opinion about Liberal.

On the other boards I’ve regularly visited or moderated, lissner would be banned for stalking and harrassment.

I didn’t make a moral parallel; I tried to show how the “scientific” parallel would be unacceptable in a different context.

The title “Verhoeven Reconsidered” was intended to communicate this: “Verhoeven is universally reviled. Let’s reconsider him without that prejudice, and give him the benefit of the doubt, as a thought experiment, and see if we can find something positive in his films. I’ll start, because after a lot of effort, I feel like I’ve dug out some nuggets.” TOTALLY unclear, I agree, which is why I tried to clarify during the thread, that I KNOW the consensus is negative. Let’s take that as a given–we’ve certainly all heard it before–and examine these new interpretations." As I continued to try to lay those out, I felt like I was constantly being distracted by having to rehash old arguments about why he’s such a hack. I felt like I was being dragged underwater by tiny nipping fish while I was trying to signal a passing freighter for help. Again, I should have just ignored the people who weren’t having any of the conversation I was trying to have, but I thought that THAT would lead to charges of elitism.

This utterly, utterly baffles me. I will write it on a postit and hot glue it to my monitor, but every time I remember to use this rule, I will feel like I’m being patronizing and treating you like a child, by being so, so careful only to say things you’ll feel stroked to hear.

THIS!!! Read this over again, and if you can honestly not see how utterly condescending that sounds, then I think that there’s just not much hope for you.

That said, there are plenty of people on this board who act like anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot, you’re hardly the worst offender.

I appreciate the intent, but I don’t think it’s possible to have so narrowly focused a debate on these boards. The SDMB is too general purpose for such specialized debates to exsist in a totally air-tight enviroment. There are two principles here that make this impossible. The first is that a multiplicity of viewpoints is always a good thing. This is why the OP isn’t allowed to dictate who gets to post to the thread. The second is that debates should be allowed to grow organically, even if this eventually leads to something far removed from the OP. This is why hijacking a thread isn’t against board rules. It can be kind of annoying when it happens while you’re still interested in the original subject, but shit happens. It’s part of the culture of the boards. If you don’t like it, start your own board. (But don’t stop posting here if you do. And send me the url of the new board; I promise I’ll behave.)

I think Orual’s right. This might be exactly where you’re having problems. I’m not asking you to be patronizing, I’m asking you to be respectful. Your comment about needing to spend more time studying the film is disrespectful because it’s a personal criticism. It’s mild, it’s even contructive, but above all, it’s uninvited, and that’s what really gets people’s backs up. A grosser example would be criticizing the diet of an overweight co-worker. Your advice might be correct, and it might be well intentioned, but it’s inappropriate to offer it without being asked first. Now, obviously, telling someone to watch Starship Troopers again isn’t nearly as bad, but it still crosses the same line, even if it’s by an inch and not a mile. Now, some people can get away with it: Cervaise said almost the same thing in your Verhoeven thread, but he’s a very talented writer, and (unfair as it may be) a pretty popular poster. With your reputation, and with your problems in communicating tone, you should probably stay away from making any sort of personal comments at all, unless it’s unambiguously a compliment or insult.

And maybe not so many of the latter, while you’re at it.

My point is: to ME that feels more patronising. To let a statement like “It’s crap!” stand because if I follow up with an inquiry about the efforts that led to that conclusion, might cause them to feel insulted, seems very, very patronizing to me.

lissener, if you’re not going to take our advice, when we tell you WHY you have been perceived as an asshole in the past, why even fucking BOTHER?