If someone does something that breaches my own personal view of what is polite, my assumption is they don’t know what they are doing is considered inappropriate for that cultural context. My rule of humanity is assume the best until repeatedly proven otherwise.
My husband comes from huge family of elite wealth (100+), mostly on his Dad’s side, and growing up in a small, working-class oriented family, I still find it to be a tremendous culture shock even fourteen years later. They’re also Italian Catholic so they have rituals and cultural traditions I don’t really understand, like kissing everyone on the cheek when you greet them, man or woman. The level of formality even at events like Thanksgiving and Christmas is just like nothing I’d ever experienced in my life. We were once invited on this lovely cruise, which his family paid for, but I was expected to bring six formal gowns for the occasion, and they pretty much assumed I already had such things stuffed in my closet. No, I had to go out and buy six formal gowns to make the trip.
I can’t fathom how many things I’ve done ‘‘wrong’’ in their eyes over those fourteen years (I know we fucked up big time at our wedding by not inviting everyone because we could not afford a wedding for 200 people at the age of 23, but I didn’t find out about that until years later), but it certainly wasn’t intentional. I never had any real exposure to weddings, or giant fancy catered dinners, or any of those things that people of a certain class take for granted. On the other hand, I find it abhorrent to crack misogynist jokes about the wife you beat, and treat service staff like shit, so they’ve violated plenty of my rules, too.
Adherence to rules of etiquette to the point that you must impugn the motives or character of others is what I find most impolite.
But you see, that is different than what [del]you [/del] was posted, which is that there is a liability for stopping. [del]Surely you see the difference?[del]
And if you have a vehicle and wave something through when there is another car coming, then there could be liability.
Gaijin is what many people consider an impolite way of referring to foreigners. It never bothered me, but many people don’t like it
Simply putting a “san” or “mr/ms.” in front of it doesn’t make it polite.
Me (to groom): “Congratulations!” Groom: “Thanks!”
Me (to bride): “Best wishes!” Bride: “Um, thanks. But why didn’t you say ‘congratulations’ to me, like you did to him?”
Me: “Well, I’m observing proper etiquette. I didn’t want to insult you by implying that you’re a prostitute.”
Bride: [stares at me like I’m insane]
Me: “Or, well, I didn’t mean it like that. I mean, well, gold digger?”
Bride: “…”
Me: “Aren’t I doing great so far not insulting you? Gee, this sure is a nice wedding.”
So… It’s insulting to congratulate a bride, but not insulting for a woman to refuse to shake a mans hand. This is one of the most bizarre threads I’ve seen.
I think it’s insulting to the bride as well, suggesting that she’s either ignorant of the fact that “congratulations” can mean different things in different contexts, or that she’ll willfully choose the worst interpretation, rather than “I’m happy for you,” which is what anyone who isn’t mentally deficient or insane would immediately understand it to mean.
It’s as ridiculous as taking offense at “I’ll miss you,” because that might imply that I’m planning to fire a gun at you.
Attendee “goodbye, nice to see you after so long, man” :::::extends hand::::
Groom “Bye” :::shakes hand:::
Bride ::::extends hand:::
Attendee ::::blank stare::::
Bride “So now you don’t want to shake my hand? Why”
Attendee “Because they might think you’re … ahhhh, nevermind. Best…err, congratulations again. Later!”
It introduces new dimensions to consider what’s polite or not across languages and cultures. American brides thinking they are being insulted by being congratulated might not last long living/working in foreign countries.
外国人 (outside-country-person) is a Chinese word for ‘foreigner’ also used in Japanese and Korean, pronounced something gaikokujin and waegukin respectively but usually contracted to gaijin in Japanese and not usually contracted in Korean. But it seemed to me (having lived both places) it was more more likely for foreigners in Japan to consider gaijin derogatory than foreigners in Korea to view waegukin as derogatory. In China (where I haven’t lived) 老外 (old-outside) is a more common word sometimes viewed as derogatory, and it seems 外国人(wàiguórén) is less likely to be considered so, perhaps because more literal. Also it might be because other unambiguously derogatory terms for foreigners are more likely to be heard in Chinese. It’s all about context I guess.
‘Congratluations’ can be the same in Chinese and Korean, 祝賀, you might indeed say it to a bride, and it’s being impolite IMO to react badly to someone translating literally from their native language who doesn’t know old WASP’y etiquette points, which most Americans don’t either.
In other words, you didn’t do the experiment. I hear you loud and clear, and your justifications for why you didn’t do it are completely unbelievable :).
I dare you. I double-dare you: apply some rigor to your beliefs. Are you brave enough?
Honestly when I think WASP I think upper middle class white people, like Long Island or Connecticut. I don’t know of any implications beyond that, or even if I have the right idea. It wasn’t a term I grew up with in the Midwest, I only started hearing it on the East Coast, so I associate it with a certain kind of East Coast lifestyle.
It seems that etiquette is very culturally grounded, which includes race, national origin, and religion. jsgoddess’ point is that expectations of appropriate (or not) behavior are in fact grounded in culture and not universal. There is an overwhelming tendency for people, especially members of a dominant race or culture, to assume their ideas of what is socially appropriate are somehow objective, when that is not at all the case.
