However, I want to apologize, since my post was poorly worded. I am not implying that jsgoddess is in any way shape of form a bigot. Just that using "WASP"several times to refer to a certain set of etiquette is a bit stereotyping.
I am sure there are Polish-American Catholics and others who study Ms Manners just as avidly. Hardly restricted to one race or religion.
Perhaps, in the past.
Maybe we can try to move beyond racial stereotyping, today.
Yeah, but wouldn’t they put their own cultural spin on it?
Like in my husband’s Italian Catholic family, it’s considered poor etiquette not to kiss every goddamn person you know at a party. A room full of 200 people, you gotta kiss everybody you talk to, even if you see them once every three years and couldn’t remember their name if your life depended on it. (I’m not very comfortable with this at all, it is way over the line for my personal space comfort, but I do it anyway.)
In ZPG Zealot’s culture it’s deeply offensive for a man to touch a woman that’s not his wife (I think.)
Very different things, radically different ideas of what is socially correct, both very much wrapped up in culture and class.
And on that note, I definitely don’t think of ZPG Zealot as WASPy but maybe I’m wrong. I think I don’t really know what is implied by WASP other than the literal interpretation. But ‘‘White Anglo Saxon Protestant’’ mores vary dramatically based on class and geography and ethnicity. I think that is why I’m so confused.
I simply do not believe that any of this is true. Period.
I was raised a Methodist. Pretty WASP. Methodists are known for their handshakes, It’s a “thing”.
I have no fucking idea in what culture it is offensive to shake a woman’s hand*, but it’s not part of the WASP culture.
So, not only slightly offensive and quite stereotyping but* wrong*.
As long as they’re the same gender, it’s okay to shake their hand. But go gentle. Only shake a woman’s hand if she offers it.
What is Proper Handshake Etiquette Around the World? | Mental Floss
Thanks: now I’m really, really worried about the lovely, helpful male tow truck driver whose hand I shook this morning.
I thought I was just thanking a nice guy who went out of his way to help me. Now I just feel . . . dirty. Is there some kind of handshake re-virginization program offered in my region?
I thought jsgoddess was talking about WASP-inspired wedding etiquette, not handshakes.
The only reason we were talking about handshakes is because every thread ZPG Zealot is ever engaged in is hijacked with the handshake debate. I thought it a useful paradigm for how widely cultural mores vary.
I actually agree with the underlying principle, no woman (or man) should be forced to have physical contact they don’t want to have. Unless their job relies explicitly on making such contact, they certainly should not be fired for it. People who knowingly violate the physical boundaries of others are more prone to do it again and again, hence, a man who forcibly shakes a woman’s hand is probably more likely to commit other nonconsensual acts. There’s nothing flawed in the logic there, I’ve seen that general principle of respecting others’ boundaries touted in many self-defense/self-protection campaigns as regards sexual assault and abuse. Ignoring people’s explicit boundaries is a huge red flag for abusive behavior.
Judging other people who think handshakes are cool, though, calling women who shake men’s hands whores even outside of that cultural context, that’s taking it a step too far.
What ends up happening is people end up mocking ZPG’s culture instead of her inflexible attitude toward cultural etiquette, which is also not cool. There’s nothing inherently wrong with ZPG being culturally offended by a man touching her without permission/a good reason. What’s wrong is that she judges people who don’t hold that same cultural standard as morally inferior.
Nor have I ever heard that issue, outside of this forum.
Thanks, Spice Weasel - I’ll totally cosign this post. I really hate the piling-on that we do here sometimes - and ZPG seems to be one of the main targets. Can we all go back to funny bloopers that people do? Please?
I’m guessing a much higher rate of murder though.
ZPG Zealot, I may have missed or skimmed some posts, but I’m confused. Do you mind telling me (approximately) where you’re from, like what country, or if in the USA, what general area of the country? Do you mind sharing your general ethnicity?
I apologize if you find these questions rude, feel free to ignore. But, directly conversely to you, I have never (as far as I know) encountered someone who holds the position you do regarding wedding etiquette or handshaking. So I’m just really curious to find out where in world toasters and newspapers don’t exist (to re-use your analogy).
ZPG has trotted out the same etiquette guides for handshakes, saying it’s the rule that en only shake hands with women if the women offer first. It’s very true that you can find both “rules” in etiquette books of a specific culture, but it isn’t my culture.
There is no one right way to talk, to eat, to get married, or to live. Someone can follow Emily Post if they want, and it is associated with wealth and status so it will have some cachet, but making up rules and then being offended when they are broken is awful behavior, not good manners.
I am definitely not WASP, but I interacted and interacted with enough of them (hey, it’s where the money and the power is) I could probably get a decent anthropology thesis if not a Ph.d from my experiences.
Neither have I. But it’s way more plausibly a WASP thing than the handshake thing.
I think I was technically a WASP. The poor kind. My experience of weddings was mostly limited to courthouses and county parks prior to getting married, and my wedding was gasp not even in a church! When I go home for the weddings of my peers, I see so much stuff that would make rich people cringe. I don’t give a shit, personally, but I’m saying I’ve had a wide enough range of experiences to see that what is considered normal varies dramatically based on race, class, SES, nationality, ethnicity, religion, etc. etc. and a lot of etiquette threads to me come off as, ‘‘Oh, I hate it when people do things like poor people.’’
Asking for money in lieu of gifts is a good example. Within a certain subset of the population, this is not at all considered offensive, and that’s because, wait for it… poor people need cash more than they need a fucking tea strainer. Mommy and Daddy are not typically paying for the wedding, and if they are, they’re probably making BBQ chicken with their own grill for the grand affair. The DJ is someone the family knows. There is no photographer. Everyone gets hammered from the Keg and the bride changes into blue jeans after the wedding (my mother did, for her third.) That was normal growing up. Throwing the registry card in with the invite? That assumes there’s even an official invite.
I’ve been in the weird-ass position of having relatively wealthy peers for a long time, starting with college, where I went to a rich-kid’s school, and then grad school at Penn, and of course with the family I married into. I have felt for decades like I’m straddling the divide between classes, and it’s odd. I’m not like my hometown peers with their courthouse weddings and I’m not like my husband’s Aunt who gets remarried at a destination wedding at a resort in the Dominican Republic and whose invitation comes in a gift-wrapped box with a personally embossed seal. That cruise I mentioned upthread with the six formal gown attendance requirement was actually a 50th wedding anniversary celebration that took place on a cruise ship in the middle of the Mediterranean and included a giant ice sculpture with their name on it. I have seen it all (and I’m not even including the contortionists.)
But what I have seen most of all is the assumption in all of these contexts that there is only one right and true way to do things, and having seen it all, and having seen the social context in which these things happen, I assure you it’s not the case.
I will never forget a moment I had studying social work at Penn, which is arguably one of the most old-school elitist institutions around, in which we’d just had this class all about poverty and child welfare and the greater implications of all these social justice issues people face. We got it hammered into our brains 24/7 that race, class, culture, all of these things influence the dynamics between individuals.
Soon as class ends, the kids start talking to the professor (who was also the Dean) who is showing off his kid’s wedding announcement in the paper. He makes some offhanded comment about how the bride’s parents agreed to split the wedding costs and he thought it was weird but it made him happy not to carry that financial burden. The girls pipe up, ‘‘Oh, yeah, that’s how it’s done now, the bride’s parents pay for ABC and the groom’s parents pay for XYZ.’’
What the what? Is that how it’s done now? My parents said, ‘‘We’ll support you until you’re 18, then GTFO.’’ I did them one better and became financially independent at 17.
That’s how it’s done now. Etiquette in a nutshell.
I simple do not believe you have every spent any time around women (or men the more I think about it). Period. I just checked your public profile. You are from East Texas and you have never encountered Southern women that are cliquish and who shun and scorn outsiders. Not effing possible.
My ethnicity is Roma. I was born in the United States and raised in many places in the United States and abroad most notably the former Yugoslavia during a significant portion of my childhood. One of my aunt had to take me behind the fucking Iron Curtain to keep my mother from ruining my life. I went to the University of Houston for a year than got full financial backing to attend Sweetbriar College by some lovely women who were interested in Roma education. I have got a Bachelors (Sweet Briar) and Masters in History (Univ. of AL) (yeah, I know not the most employable of degrees) and Masters in Library Science (Univ. of North Texas).
So, like, what year was it that you witnessed these cliquish, southern women shunning others?
You sound like you’ve lived a pretty fascinating life, especially considering all the different kinds of people you’ve likely met doing fortune-telling.
I strongly encourage the snarky, DGAF version of Spice Weasel.
Last week I listened to several of my acquaintances (I don’t particularly like calling them friends sometimes even though we’ve known each other since undergraduates and in their own way they are nice women) discuss a young woman they weren’t going to tolerate joining the Junior League. If this young woman persisted they intended to have the woman’s husband laid off from his job (and unfortunately, they had the connections to do this).
You know, ZPG (can I call you ZPG?), there are lots of nasty and unpleasant people in the world, for sure. But in my experience, no matter where you go, there are also many who are nice, friendly, happy, charming, kind to their fellow humans, and pleasurable to be around. I get the distinct impression that you have never, in your life, met a single one of the latter category. I find that very strange.
Either that, or someone is peeing in your cornflakes every single morning, and yet you keep eating it.