Post Divorce: My little girl misses her Mom. I'm getting angry. [long]

In My Humble Opinion
61

[QUOTE=Belrix]

The nightly phone call is a big frustration for us - it keeps the kids from learning to have days that are independent of their mother. It’d be the same intrusion if I insisted on calling and talking to the kids every night they’re at their Moms.
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They don’t need days that are independent of their mother. It is NOT an intrusion on your time for them to say goodnight to their mother. Likewise, it is not an intrusion on her time for you to get to say goodnight to your children while they are with her.

No, it’s not. My mother died when I was in my 20s, but before she died, I phoned her every day. That didn’t make me any less independent (whatever that means).

Either you took the advice the wrong way, or you got very bad advice, IMO. And this is why. . .

Maybe if you didn’t tear her children away from her even being able to hear their voices before bedtime, she might not be so torn up that she has to cry to them about it. I’d highly recommend you stop creating a rift between your wife and her children. It’s clearly unhealthy for everyone, but most especially those innocent children.

62

Well dammit, that was me above, not Spiny Norman. That’ll teach me to use the house computer and not my laptop, without checking who was the last one logged in. <sigh> Sorry for any confusion.

63

[QUOTE=Belrix]
I printed my OP and gave it to her last night.
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So you had to print out your OP rather than just talking with her? Maybe you should write a letter to your daughter as well.

If you can’t simple express your frustration in words to your wife how are you expressing your concern to your daugher about her feelings?

[QUOTE=Belrix]
She knows me enough to know I have to rant a bit, be sleepless for a while, then I get a handle on things and usually deal with them pragmatically.

She’s advising wait-and-see. The first part of the week was pretty good - it was just the last half that was bad. The first part of the week, we were getting by on Sally’s nightly call to her mother and simply sleeping until morning. We were high-fiving ourselves on the success that dropping the PM meds had on Sally’s apparent sleep/dream/terror problems.

My wife is hoping if we just wait it out, then the first part of the week will become the norm.
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She is probably right. It will take time.

[QUOTE=Belrix]
She’s frustrated with my Ex’s behavior, too. There’s probably not a week the kids are with us where some action of my Ex doesn’t come in and hijack something we’re trying to make happen in the kids lives
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I am not sure I understand. What are your trying to make happen in the kids lives?

[QUOTE=Belrix]
The nightly phone call is a big frustration for us - it keeps the kids from learning to have days that are independent of their mother. It’d be the same intrusion if I insisted on calling and talking to the kids every night they’re at their Moms.

It’s important that the kids develop this independence.

A year ago or so, my eldest son told his mom he didn’t want to come to my apartment anymore because my place was haunted. It worried me, of course, on several levels. I called the psych that treated my son for a while for advice.

The psych said, based on conversations she’d had with him, the real problem was that he worried about his mother being alone (this was between boyfriends). He saw himself as her protector and he needed a reason to stay home and protect his mother. It wasn’t that I was being rejected, it was because he was creating a reason to stay home.

For this reason, she said, it’s important that the parents communicate to the children that they, the parents, are fine when the kids are away with the other parent. The message should be that we’ll be just fine, we’ll miss you while you’re gone and look forward to you coming back.

The important thing is that while the kids are away, you’re home being just fine.

So - professional advice on what message to give the kids. I took this information to my ex. In that conversation, my ex claims to have bought into the psych’s advice but in her nightly phone calls, I hear her telling the kids how much she misses them and how their being gone is tearing her up. How do I hear this? My kids sometimes press the speaker phone button when they’re on the phone with her. I think it’s just fun to use the phone that way.
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While I agree with what the psych said about the kids feeling guilty and scared about leaving their mother alone but that is not independence. They are dependent on her and will be for a long time.

Your phone comment is really inmature. I can image the glee on your face when they hit the speaker button and then the anger that washes over your face when she tells her children she misses them.

[QUOTE=Belrix]
Sometimes, with the speaker phone, I can just tell from their side of the conversation. “I miss you a lot, too, Mom.” was my elder son’s side the other day.
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So what? Is she not suppose to miss them or is she not suppose to tell them that?

There is a difference between “OMG I AM SO ALONE AND A WISH YOU WERE HERE AND I CAN’T WAIT FOR YOU TO COME HOME” and “I miss you”

[QUOTE=Belrix]
There’s other stuff, too, but that nightly phone call is the hub of a lot of problems. Frequently Sally will be happy and playing before the call but receiving the call will start her sobbing until she’s asleep in bed.

My point, is that despite my ex’s “agreement” to the psych’s advice, she’s doing the opposite (and will then lie about it later). That nightly call is a nightly reinforcement that the kids’ mother is not OK without them there, which then increases their guilt when they’re with me (they’ve left their mother and made her unhappy - no kid wants to make their mom unhappy.)

I think the nightly call is not about the kids, it’s about my ex’s self-centered need to be missed.

This is one example of an ex-wife induced frustration that makes parenting my kids even harder. There’s others, of course. Both my wife and I have muscle strain from the weekly rolling of our eyes.
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Maybe your ex is not okay with them being away from her. She is their mother. When my children went to their dads for the weekend I missed them. It is hard to go 24/7 for two weeks straight and then have them gone for a weekend. I worried about them. I am sure a whole week seems like forever.

If she is really as selfish as you claim she would be thrilled to have them out of her hair for a week but it does not sound like that is the issue.

[QUOTE=BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed]
This seems to me to be less of a case of “my ex is a bitch and ruined me” rather than “my ex is a bitch and is actively doing things to physically damage and psychologically cripple and manipulate our daughter.”
[/quote]

While agree with your statement I think mine still stands…

His own words make me think he still holds active resentment for breaking up their marriage.

I think both statement ring true. He hates her for breaking up their marriage and continues to hate her for making things difficult with the children. The problem is he never got past the first anger so the second is coming across with more anger than frustration. It is the snowball effect.

If Sally does get over this issue, and I am sure she will, and things do calm down the anger will appear again whem the next problem arrises. Only it will be worse because then you will have “The bitch fucked our marriage and is a whore” plus “she fucked with my daughters head and made life hell for several months” added to what ever new thing comes along.

The first reason he hates her should not have bearing on this issue but he wants to wrap it all up into the same package.

64

[QUOTE=Belrix]

Anybody got anything useful?
[/QUOTE]

I second/third/whatever-the-count-is the suggestions for medical visits and family therapy.

I strongly, strongly suggest that you document everything about this, with dates and conversations. If your ex refuses the therapy, you’re probably going to wind up back in court to get total custody of your daughter for her own well-being.

Good luck!

65

[QUOTE=Spiny Norman]
My mother died when I was in my 20s, but before she died, I phoned her every day. That didn’t make me any less independent (whatever that means).
…
Either you took the advice the wrong way, or you got very bad advice, IMO. And this is why. . . Maybe if you didn’t tear her children away from her even being able to hear their voices before bedtime, she might not be so torn up that she has to cry to them about it.
[/QUOTE]

But if your mother wasn’t available that night, as my ex wasn’t the other night, did you then cry for three hours screaming that you couldn’t sleep without hearing your mother’s voice?

That’s the kind of independence that I want her to develop.

I don’t control her ability to call her mother - in fact, before bed each night, we say, “If you want to call your mom, now would be a good time.” I make it an option, her choice. Where did you get the idea I tore her children away from her?

I think your projecting your own issues onto mine.

66

How is it that you imagine you know what kind of independence your daughter should develop and when?

You seem to be awfully dependent on your ex-wife yourself; if you didn’t have her to blame for the failure of your marriage, what would you do?

You just really boggle me. If you want your daughter to love you, which is a good thing to want IMHO, then love her and support her as she is, where she is. Not where she “should” be.

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[QUOTE=Belrix]
But if your mother wasn’t available that night, as my ex wasn’t the other night, did you then cry for three hours screaming that you couldn’t sleep without hearing your mother’s voice?

That’s the kind of independence that I want her to develop.

I don’t control her ability to call her mother - in fact, before bed each night, we say, “If you want to call your mom, now would be a good time.” I make it an option, her choice. Where did you get the idea I tore her children away from her?

I think your projecting your own issues onto mine.
[/QUOTE]

Your daughter is 8 and has spent the last several years going through hell. To her it probably feels like she has been torn away from her mother 2 days every 2 weeks. Independence is great, but with what has been going on it sounds like a bit much to ask at this point to me.

68

Couple of things:

First, it seems to me from this thread and muh-any others that you have emotional issues regarding your ex that you largely refuse to deal with, being more comfortable holding out to your righteous (you think) anger. It’s a POV I have trouble understanding, especially since you’re married again, but whatevs.

If your daughter is truly emotionally disturbed, screaming and crying in a manner that is genuinely beyond her ability to control it, then she needs serious therapy, stat. If she is acting out but could restrain herself with some effort, then she needs boundaries, stat. It is not acceptable to scream and cry all night long, disturbing the whole house. If you do it, there are consequences the next day. It is not acceptable to get out of bed and go disturb your parent at a night without a damn good reason – illness, nightmare – much less acceptable to do so multiple times a night. If you do so, there are consequences the next day.

It’s not like parental expectations of children’s behavior exist only in the daylight, and it’s not like you have to stand still and let your daughter manipulate you. And of course she’s trying to manipulate you; all children are manipulative if they can be, it’s one of the few tools of the essentially powerless.

Rewards and consequences: “I know you miss mom but this is my time with you and if you didn’t come to see me, I would miss you. You can call mom one hour before bed, and then we will put our jammies on and have a story, and then it’s bedtime. If you stay in your bed all night, we will go to the pool tomorrow. If you don’t, we will stay home and you will help me clean the garage.”

It’s not “independence,” it’s respect for your house rules and it’s the exercise of an age-appropriate level of self-control. If she honest to God cannot do it, then you have a serious problem and you need to get her some help immediately.

The fact that you want to scream at your daughter at the age of 8 and that you consider her mother a whore are obviously your issues, and IMO you should get some help with them as well. If you think your kids don’t sense your stubbornly retained hatred for their mother, you’re kidding yourself. I think you’re on the way to raising a pretty seriously screwed up kid. I have no doubt you will blame your ex 100% for that sad result, but you’ll be kidding yourself about that, too.

69

You could get her a little cot and let her sleep in your bedroom, for a few months. The kid needs to be comforted. That’s not misbehavior.

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[QUOTE=fessie]
You could get her a little cot and let her sleep in your bedroom, for a few months. The kid needs to be comforted. That’s not misbehavior.
[/QUOTE]

Respectfully, I would not do this. The child does not need to be in her father’s room with him and his new wife. She is old enough to stay in her own room, unless she has serious emotional disturbance issues. Even then, I doubt seriously the remedy would be to move her into their room, but there I must defer to experts in child development and/or psychology.

71

[QUOTE=SomeUserName]
I think both statement ring true. He hates her for breaking up their marriage and continues to hate her for making things difficult with the children. The problem is he never got past the first anger so the second is coming across with more anger than frustration. It is the snowball effect.

If Sally does get over this issue, and I am sure she will, and things do calm down the anger will appear again whem the next problem arrises. Only it will be worse because then you will have “The bitch fucked our marriage and is a whore” plus “she fucked with my daughters head and made life hell for several months” added to what ever new thing comes along.

The first reason he hates her should not have bearing on this issue but he wants to wrap it all up into the same package.
[/QUOTE]
I’ll admit this. In another thread once, I said how I finally thought I had a handle on the situation. I had tamped it all into a corner of my brain, wrapped it in “Caution” tape, and pretty much had learned to look at it without total revulsion and anger. At one point, I thought I had managed to change most of my responses to just some sort of bemusement, sort of a “Here she goes again” response.

Then, she opened the can of worms again, announced that she was taking me back to court because she thought she got a raw deal in the divorce, and (between her and her pseudo-mother-in-law) threatened to take my custody time from me by holding my one remaining asset hostage (as if I’d trade my kids for half a $20k asset).

That got tossed onto the “Wrongs-she-done-to-me” pile and the tape burst and I started all over again trying to sweep it into my mental corner. I still haven’t managed to get it all back. She keeps piling stuff on it, my having the kids half time has given me more control over them and, therefore, changed the previous balance of power.

Things I just had to put up with before, like the whole Tylenol thing, I can now try to affect. Having more time allows me to be a more involved parent.

So yes, Candle has it right in a way but you’re right in a way, too. It’s not that this is simply a past wrong that I"m dealing with, its the ongoing pile of crap she keeps shoveling into mine and the kids’ lives.

SomeUserName, you claimed to be on the other side of the every-other-weekend equation. You said you missed those kids for the two nights they were with their father. Put yourself in my shoes - I was without them 12 nights out of 24. It was hell to take them back and drop them back at their mothers knowing it’d be a week before I’d see them again for a simple dinner.

Why does my Ex want them so much? Frankly it’s always baffled me some. She wanted out of the marriage because, in part, she was feeling the pressure of being and old-married woman. She wanted the excitement of the dance bars, dating, and all that again. I’m making assumptions some but it’s consistent with what she did the last two years of our marriage.

She also, though, gets a lot of identity as a mother- she’ll do a lot to appear like a good mother. Appearances are very important to her. Sometimes I think the kids, to her, a like little accessories that allow her to carry her “Mom” credentials. When nobody’s looking, she’s not the mother she claims to be.

Am I without fault? Of course not, things are never one-sided but I do think that while I’m trying to be working with the process, she’s always trying to work the process to her best advantage.

I guess I’ve just had my fill of it.

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[QUOTE=Belrix]
So yes, Candle has it right in a way but you’re right in a way, too. It’s not that this is simply a past wrong that I"m dealing with, its the ongoing pile of crap she keeps shoveling into mine and the kids’ lives.
[/quote]

You are responsible for your own emotions and reactions. You own your own anger, and ultimately she is not responsible for it, you are. YOU keep shoveling piles of crap into YOUR OWN life. Even in your last post, you have to ruminate on your exwife “dating” and going to “dance bars” in your last two years of marriage. You have to say she only “appears” to be a good mother, when none of that has fuck-all to do with your daughter’s situation and how to solve it. Again and again, you come back to how worthless and awful your ex-wife is. It’s like it’s your goddam Precious.

Anger gives people power over you, because it allows them to dictate how you feel and what you do. Let it go and move on. Deal with her actions without the emotional baggage of questioning her motivations – who gives a shit what motivates her? Even if she’s motivated by the desire to make your life a living hell, that just means you should move on and be happy rather than give her the satisfaction.

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[QUOTE=Belrix]

Why does my Ex want them so much? Frankly it’s always baffled me some. She wanted out of the marriage because, in part, she was feeling the pressure of being and old-married woman. She wanted the excitement of the dance bars, dating, and all that again. I’m making assumptions some but it’s consistent with what she did the last two years of our marriage.

She also, though, gets a lot of identity as a mother- she’ll do a lot to appear like a good mother. Appearances are very important to her. Sometimes I think the kids, to her, a like little accessories that allow her to carry her “Mom” credentials. When nobody’s looking, she’s not the mother she claims to be.

Am I without fault? Of course not, things are never one-sided but I do think that while I’m trying to be working with the process, she’s always trying to work the process to her best advantage.

I guess I’ve just had my fill of it.
[/QUOTE]

With respect, none of this has anything to do with your daughter. I get the feeling that on some level, you expect your kids to understand all of the above and to sympathize with you about how shitty a parent her mom is. But she’s not going to, and she shouldn’t be expected to.

Instead of becoming insane with rage when your daughter gets up in the middle of the night and cries for her mom and interrupts your lovemaking sessions, try working with her. Listen to her understandingly. If you don’t care about how much she misses her mom, pretend to care. Say things like, “You really miss your mom, don’t you? It’s hard to go between houses sometimes, isn’t it?” Set reasonable expectations and rewards/consequences, as Jodi suggested. Point out that you and your wife need to get sleep, and if you can get a good night’s sleep with no interruptions, you’ll be well rested and can go to [the zoo/the park/the library/whatever] but if you are woken up throughout the night, you will be too tired. See if you can find solutions to this, rather than just becoming angry and throwing another log on the pile of resentment toward your ex. In fact, forget your ex, as much as humanly possible, and focus on your daughter. Not on how your ex has screwed your daughter up, not on how everything would be so much easier without your ex in the picture, but on your daughter and her problems. Which, I guarantee you, are real problems, even though she’s only 8 years old.

I really do think family therapy would be beneficial for everybody concerned at this point.

74

You could possibly get away with putting the ball in your ex-wife’s court for 80% of the problems if she was someone you met, fucked, and left. But that’s not who your ex-wife is – she was your wife for a long time, and bore you 3 children. She’s a part of you. She represents a big chunk of your decision-making process. You own the demise of that marriage, too.

I don’t know the answer to the problems between you and you’re daughter (maybe I’m wrong about the cot in the bedroom, I dunno; it worked with my 4-yr-olds when they were shaky during a spell when dh and I were bickering a lot), but quit blaming your ex-wife. She’s not at your house.

And your daughter is clearly manifesting the emotional problems in your home. Kids do that all the time, they’re emotional sponges. Parents often drag them into therapy and demand they be fixed, when it’s the family who’s ill. You wrapping everything up in tape isn’t getting it done. She’s proof.

Pretty bedding is not the same as emotional intimacy. It’s actually quite hilarious that you’d criticize your ex for being all about “appearances”, given your use of your daughter’s bedroom as evidence of your fatherhood. Duh.

Be available for your daughter, emotionally. Support her. You care enough to write about this, here; surely you can learn how to meet her needs.

75

Say all you want about the mom, but you’re not looking to great here yourself.

Have you taken your daughter to the docter yet? Why are you waiting for a callback? Can’t you just call the pediatrician and make a sick visit appointment?

I have no sympathy for the “she was living with her full-time” excuse for not doing anything about the medication. Fuck that man. I feel real sorry for your kids.

76

Maybe she loves them. Is that just a slight possibility?

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[QUOTE=Belrix]
Oh - and Smiling Bandit - I left a message and am awaiting call-back… and your threat was both rude and empty of terror. Hello CPS? Yes, I’d like to report Belrix. Yes Belrix. B-E-L-R-I-X. Yeah. He’s in Denver somewhere.
[/QUOTE]

You haven’t dealt with Children Services before, have you?

They can find you. They’ll enjoy it. The love their work.

78

[QUOTE=grayhairedmomma]

Have you taken your daughter to the docter yet? Why are you waiting for a callback? Can’t you just call the pediatrician and make a sick visit appointment?

[/QUOTE]

And, Belrix, if you can’t get through to your pediatrician in any way, at all – 1) take daughter to Emergicare or whatever comparable service your insurance covers and 2) find a new pediatrician.

79

Couple of things:

  1. Belrix is trying, I think. He came here looking for advice, no? I think there is more going on than meets this thread, including his unresolved anger toward his ex, HER manipulative behavior (having been a child of divorce I recognize it for what it is–a mindfuck that can take decades to get over, but more about that later), and 3 kids who have no idea who to trust anymore. Those boys who seem to be handling this so well? They’re not–boys tend to be less verbal about things that bother them–they’re bothered, you just can’t see it.

  2. Jodi has some good ideas. When the kids come–are you trying to be Disney-Dad? Or is it a home that they come to? Sure, they have their own rooms and all, but do they have puzzles or projects that “wait” for them that you all share? Do they have down time during the weekend where you aren’t entertaining them or treating them like guests? Do they have chores and responsibilities in your house?

  3. I hate to say this, but you could be Mr Rogers and none of this is going to work if your Ex is as bad as you say she is. It sounds like she is leaning on the kids for emotional support, while undermining your relationship to them as a way to express her anger at you. This is also known as using the kids as weapons aka the mindfuck I mentioned. This past weapon can tell you, it sucks to be used in this way. I have no doubt she is filling their heads with all manner of crap re abandonment and betrayal and loyalties. Grown up are seriously fucked up people sometimes, which leads me to #4.

  4. You cannot be this way with them. They need sanity, stability and calm. It will take longer; it will be harder, but the pay off is much greater and long lasting. You MUST get yourself together and be strong for them (how you are doing this while building a new marriage baffles me, but I am not you). You need to talk to a therapist–I have no doubt your Ex is as bad as you paint her, but what shit she pulls should not effect what you do. Yes, there are hoops to jump through (the doc and the Tylenol PM), but in order to get ANY traction in the courts, you must jump through those hoops.

  5. Set limits for ALL your kids at your house. Don’t single your daughter out. If anything, you should thank her for making you pay attention to how serious this is for all of them. Talk to them about mundane, everyday things. Find something you can all laugh at. Find an activity you can all share and enjoy–you are building and strengthening ties.

  6. You have to find a way to communicate and negotiate with your spouse. Baby steps–she is frightened (and frightening) woman who is acting out and not a good parent at present. Her kids–YOUR kids-- still love her. She is their mother; the strongest bond there is. She, no matter how fucked up, is their world. Mess with it at your peril (as you have found).

Now, I know that last is so unfair as to be evil. I’m sorry. That’s just the way it is. She may not deserve to BE a parent, but she is one. I think that despite everything, you may be able to really build something with your kids. But you need to find a safe place to dump that anger, get advice and build a strategy.

One day at a time.

80

[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
You haven’t dealt with Children Services before, have you?

They can find you. They’ll enjoy it. The love their work.
[/QUOTE]
smiling bandit, I already told you we don’t want people getting involved in people’s real lives, yet you’re continuing to pursue the subject. This is an official warning to drop it.