Post-MLK-Day reflection: How much racism is left in America? How important is it?

[BrainGlutton]

Since the Civil Rights movement we’ve certainly come a lot closer to the America Martin Luther King dreamed of, where his children would be “judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their characters.” But how close? What racism remains in our society? How influential is it?

It’s a lot harder to make that assessment now than it was in 1968, because racism has come to be seen as something shameful and embarassing. Much easier to publicly admit a taste for bizarre sexual practices than to admit feelings of racial hatred. But that doesn’t mean racism has vanished, only that it’s been driven underground. Leaving out the obvious stuff like hate groups, which are many but marginal, and hate crimes, which are not tolerated by public authorities in any jurisdiction, here’s some points for discussion:

1. If you’re African-American, how does that affect your prospects for employment? I’ve heard a lot of stories about how many white employers will try to find ways to keep out blacks without committing any provable violations of applicable laws. How much substance is there to that?

1a. What if you’re of some other nonwhite race? Will that be a problem?
2. If you’re African-American, will you have any trouble buying a home in one of the modern gated-and-covenanted suburban communities?

2a. And if you’re of some other nonwhite race?
3. What else is there that you might have to endure if you’re an African-American? Do white people often express hate or contempt or suspicion in subtle ways? Do they stare at you mistrustfully when you walk into a store?

3a. And if you’re of some other nonwhite race?
4. There’s a powerful modern movement for restricting immigration into the U.S., and it does not appear to be limited to ideological conservatives. For most of our history, most (voluntary) immigrants to the U.S. came from Europe. The Immigration Act of 1924 was enacted with the express purpose of preserving America’s character as a white man’s country. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924.) It was repealed in 1965 – and since then, most immigrants to the U.S. have come from non-white countries. (Assuming, as most Americans do, that Latin Americans are not “white.”) Some anti-immigrationists, such as Michael Lind (emphatically not a racist, in fact he enthusiastically supports the idea of a racial melting pot in America), say we need to support the earning prospects of American workers by protecting them from competition from impoverished immigrants. But there are many others – Pat Buchanan, Samuel Huntington, Peter Brimelow – who frame the issue in terms of preserving America’s “language and culture.” In what cases, and to what extent, is this a euphemism for “color”?

(Some anti-immigrationists, OTOH, make no secret of their racism, though nowadays they make efforts to present it in a measured and circumspect way with support from racial pseudoscience. E.g., the New Century Foundation and its American Renaissance magazine – I won’t link to its site directly because of the board rule against linking to “hate sites,” but here’s a Wikipedia article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Renaissance_(magazine).)

[Ryan_Liam]

Instead of African American, why can’t people just say Black?

African American sounds patronising in the sense they didn’t come over here by choice, but by force.

[Balle_M]

@Ryan_Liam

Instead of African American, why can’t people just say Black?

African American sounds patronising in the sense they didn’t come over here by choice, but by force.

Really?

I’ll have to ask my ex-Nigerian neighbors who forced them over here in 1996.

[Anaamika]

Not that everyone who is black is African-American, either. What do you call the blacks who are not from Africa, and don’t consider themselves to be from Africa. It’s a stupid term all around.

As for racism, there are still parts of the country that have STRONG racist overtones. I know when we lived in Tennessee for a while:

Well, let me say it this way. When we visited, for the Gran 'Ol Opry, everyone was VERY nice and sweet. So we thought, what a great place to live. Well, what a mistake. We are E. Indian, and people treates us like shit. After six months we had no friends, my mother was a nurse, so she got a job but they treated her horribly, and the only job my father could land was the job E. Indians are “supposed” to be doing - gas station attendant.

Now that was a loooong time ago, all the way back in 1990 or so. Still, I do feel racism in Upstate NY occasionally, but it’s fairly mild and usually goes away once the person gets to know you. Once me and the SO went to a faily well-known pizza place around here - I am not going to name it - and we got definite overtones there, when everyone else was being served/noticed other than us.

I know there are certain high-class neighborhoods around here where non-whites are not encouraged to move. That being said, i don’t think anyone would try to stop you, just snub you perhaps.

Mostly the racism we feel is very subtle. We get stared at when others don’t, people are less quick to warm up to us (both black & white). I am fairly outgoing, so most of the time I can break down these little barriers…but some people, like that pizza place, do manage to upset me.

[BrainGlutton]

@Ryan_Liam

Instead of African American, why can’t people just say Black?

African American sounds patronising in the sense they didn’t come over here by choice, but by force.

“Patronising”? I believe it was Jesse Jackson who started insisting on the use of “African-American” instead of “black” in the early '90s. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American:

It is important to note that use of the term African American carries important political overtones. Previous terms used to identify American blacks were conferred upon the group by whites and were included in the wording of various laws and legal decisions which became tools of white supremacy and oppression. There developed among blacks in America a growing desire for a term of their own choosing.

With the political consciousness that emerged from the political and social ferment of the late 1960s and early 1970s, Negro fell into disfavor among many American blacks. It had taken on a moderate, accommodationist, even Uncle Tomish, connotation. The period was a time when growing numbers of blacks in the U.S., particularly black youth, celebrated their blackness and their historical and cultural ties with the African continent. They defiantly embraced black as a group identifier – a term they themselves had repudiated only two decades earlier – a term often associated in English with things negative and undesirable, proclaiming, “Black is beautiful.”

By the 1990s, the terms Afro-American and African-American began to reemerge, this time for many as self-referential terms of choice. Just as other ethnic groups in American society historically had adopted names descriptive of their families’ geographical points of origin (such as Italian-American, Irish-American, Polish-American), many blacks in America expressed a preference for a similar term. Because of the historical circumstances surrounding the capture, enslavement and systematic attempts to de-Africanize blacks in the U.S. under chattel slavery, most American blacks are unable to trace their ancestry to a specific African nation; hence, the entire continent serves as a geographic marker.

For many, African-American is more than a name expressive of cultural and historical roots. The term expresses black pride and a sense of kinship and solidarity with others of the black African diaspora – an embracing of the notion of pan-Africanism earlier enunciated by prominent black thinkers such as Marcus Garvey, W.E.B. Dubois and, later, George Padmore.

A discussion of the term African-American and related terms can be found in the journal article “The Politicization of Changing Terms of Self Reference Among American Slave Descendants” in American Speech v 66 is 2 Summer 1991 p. 133-46.

I can think of another reason they might prefer “African-American” to “black”: It takes longer to say. Words express thoughts but they also, to some extent, shape thoughts. Consider “nigger” – a word you really can’t say without sneering; by a curious happenstance of phonetic mechanics, it just seems to twist your mouth into that shape, to make your upper lip draw back, in a way that does not happen when you say “bigger” or “chigger.” “Negro” – similar problem, but not nearly to the same extent. “Colored” sounds just too too circumspect, meant to be articulated with raised eyebrows and flared nostrils. “Black” is a plain Anglo-Saxon monosyllable – but its use to describe a group of people just sounds kind of harsh and dismissive. Then there’s “African-American” – a name which has seven syllables, incorporates the names of two continents, and one you you can’t say it without mentally reviewing, in highly condensed form, the whole history of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and all that followed from it.

[Ryan_Liam]

@BrainGlutton

“Patronising”? I believe it was Jesse Jackson who started insisting on the use of “African-American” instead of “black” in the early '90s. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American:

I can think of another reason they might prefer “African-American” to “black”: It takes longer to say. Words express thoughts but they also, to some extent, shape thoughts. Consider “nigger” – a word you really can’t say without sneering; by a curious happenstance of phonetic mechanics, it just seems to twist your mouth into that shape, to make your upper lip draw back, in a way that does not happen when you say “bigger” or “chigger.” “Negro” – similar problem, but not nearly to the same extent. “Colored” sounds just too too circumspect, meant to be articulated with raised eyebrows and flared nostrils. “Black” is a plain Anglo-Saxon monosyllable – but its use to describe a group of people just sounds kind of harsh and dismissive. Then there’s “African-American” – a name which has seven syllables, incorporates the names of two continents, and one you you can’t say it without mentally reviewing, in highly condensed form, the whole history of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and all that followed from it.

Well by that definition I must therefore find it offensive for someone to say white, for its shortness.

[Ryan_Liam]

@Balle_M

Really?

I’ll have to ask my ex-Nigerian neighbors who forced them over here in 1996.

I’m talking in a general sense.

[BrainGlutton]

@Ryan_Liam

Well by that definition I must therefore find it offensive for someone to say white, for its shortness.

Pay attention to the phonemes, Ryan! “Black” feels harsh in the mouth and harsh on the ear; “white” does not. Nobody designed that into the English language, it’s just how it worked out.

[Ryan_Liam]

@BrainGlutton

Pay attention to the phonemes, Ryan! “Black” feels harsh in the mouth and harsh on the ear; “white” does not. Nobody designed that into the English language, it’s just how it worked out.

Rubbish.

[jebert]

The term “African-American” is being used way beyond its bounds. I once heard a radio discussion of the immigrant population in England, including “Indians, Pakistanis, and African-Americans”.

Really? African-Americans in England?

[Kizarvexius]

Of course racisim is alive and well in America.

I live in a city that is about 80% Hispanic.

This puts those of us who are not Hispanic at a severe disadvantage when it comes to job searches, scholarships, or even getting good service at a restaurant. My ex-wife, for example, couldn’t even get herself hired at Wal-Mart, despite having good job skills. A friend of hers who worked in personnel later told her that her application had been tossed out because it indicated that she did not speak Spanish.

But of course, since we’re “Anglo” (whatever THAT means), ignoring or marginalizing us is perfectly acceptable.

Not that I am bitter.
:rolleyes:

[gytalf2000]

I think it is important to remember that nowadays racism is a two-way (or three-way or more!) street. Don’t assume that it is only minorities that can experience racism! As a white guy who went to a predominantly black university for graduate school, I experienced my fair share of racial bullying! (I actually posted about this quite some time ago.) They did not bother about being subtle about it either! Two of my childhood friends, both white, have lived in predominantly minority, low-income neighborhoods, and they have put up with a lot of outright hostility!
Jerks, bigots, and racists come in all colors – not just white!

[XT]

1. If you’re African-American, how does that affect your prospects for employment? I’ve heard a lot of stories about how many white employers will try to find ways to keep out blacks without committing any provable violations of applicable laws. How much substance is there to that?

1a. What if you’re of some other nonwhite race? Will that be a problem?

I’ll answer 1a. As a hispanic I find today that getting jobs are probably a bit easier (for me) than perhaps for a ‘white’. Thats because many firms like to hire ‘minorities’, and they also like bi-lingual people too. Probably looks good on their corporate resume. Of course, I have my own businesss now, so its not really an issue. But frankly getting contracts are easier for me and my company than for a company owned by a white male. The government has several programs for small, minority owned companies (8A), and honestly its been easier to get contracts under Bush than it was under Clinton…at least according to my partner (American Indian).

It wasn’t always like that of course…I remember when I lived on the East Coast there was a low level racism or at least prejudice going on. And frankly I found it mostly eminating from those who considered themselves ‘liberals’. Kind of what turned me off to the whole liberal thing in fact but thats another story.

I think today racism is mostly underground…I rarely see any directed at me anyway. Mostly what I see is covert racism…i.e. Hispanics (or Blacks) can’t do this or that because they are underprivilaged, because of their backgrounds, they don’t have a chance, etc.

2. If you’re African-American, will you have any trouble buying a home in one of the modern gated-and-covenanted suburban communities?

2a. And if you’re of some other nonwhite race?

Again, 2a. Certainly not today, at least not in my experience. However, when I was little and we first moved to the US it was definitely a problem. I remember a lot of flack when my folks wanted to move into a more wealthy neighborhood on one of the HUD programs (they would pay for a portion of the housing, we’d pay the rest), and a lot of anamosity against my family, at least initially. Again, this was on the East Coast though (Maryland to be specific). I have no idea how it is for Blacks today, but there are several Black families in my own neighborhood and they seem to fit right in…and my neighborhood is quite upscale, at least by New Mexico standards.

3. What else is there that you might have to endure if you’re an African-American? Do white people often express hate or contempt or suspicion in subtle ways? Do they stare at you mistrustfully when you walk into a store?

3a. And if you’re of some other nonwhite race?

Mostly in subtle ways. My accent gets probably the most looks. My writing and spelling in the past (mostly my syntax…spanish is different than english in subtle ways, and english has some incomprehensible spelling. In the age of spell checker though…). I don’t really see a lot of mistrustfulness out here in the west, and even in the east the last few times I was out there I think its mostly faded. Its a different age today than in the past. Of course, I’m a hispanic in a suit, not one in faded jeans just off the farm, so its rather more difficult for me to judge these things. I’m also a lot older now…and age confers some immunity to suspicion as well.

My son, who joined the marines last year claims that he hasn’t really noticed much in the way of prejudice though. Of course, he’s mostly grown up in New Mexico.

-XT

[BrainGlutton]

x, I notice you didn’t address question 4, about the influence of racism on the anti-immigration movement – which ought to be of particular importance to you, as a Latino (therefore non-white, in the eyes of some) immigrant. Perhaps the modern anti-immigration movement did not yet exist when you came here, so it never played any important role in your life; but don’t you have any thoughts about it?

For instance, last November the voters of Arizona passed Proposition 200, the so-called “Protect Arizona Now” initiative, which denies state services to illegal immigrants. The chairwoman of the PAN National Advisory Board was Virginia Abernethy, who is also on the editorial board of the openly racist (or “racialist”) Occidental Quarterly. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_Arizona_Now and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Abernethy. Smells nasty. OTOH, the PAN initiative was approved by 47% of Latino voters – Latinos who, of course, already had their U.S. citizenship, so they didn’t see the plight of illegals as their problem. So was PAN motivated by racism or not? Hard to tell.

[XT]

Actually I was typing while on the phone to tech support so there isn’t any reason other than I had to bolt that I didn’t answer #4.

4. There’s a powerful modern movement for restricting immigration into the U.S., and it does not appear to be limited to ideological conservatives. For most of our history, most (voluntary) immigrants to the U.S. came from Europe. The Immigration Act of 1924 was enacted with the express purpose of preserving America’s character as a white man’s country. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924.) It was repealed in 1965 – and since then, most immigrants to the U.S. have come from non-white countries. (Assuming, as most Americans do, that Latin Americans are not “white.”) Some anti-immigrationists, such as Michael Lind (emphatically not a racist, in fact he enthusiastically supports the idea of a racial melting pot in America), say we need to support the earning prospects of American workers by protecting them from competition from impoverished immigrants. But there are many others – Pat Buchanan, Samuel Huntington, Peter Brimelow – who frame the issue in terms of preserving America’s “language and culture.” In what cases, and to what extent, is this a euphemism for “color”?

Probably to a greater extent for those you named actually. I agree with you that there are forces at work in the US that would love to limit immigration to ‘acceptable’ types who already speak english. I think this is a huge mistake personally, as the strength of America comes from the immigrants coming from all over the world and adding their little piece to the melting pot. I basically think guys like Buchanan are nutballs, not only for their isolationist stances but for other reasons as well.

-XT

[BrainGlutton]

@xtisme

I agree with you that there are forces at work in the US that would love to limit immigration to ‘acceptable’ types who already speak english.

I think you’re missing the point. (Unless, by the word “acceptable,” you meant "white.) Seems to me these guys would rather admit a non-English-speaking, barely educated Russian than an English-speaking, college-educated Nigerian, or a physician from Sri Lanka.

[annaplurabelle]

@BrainGlutton

I think you’re missing the point. (Unless, by the word “acceptable,” you meant "white.) Seems to me these guys would rather admit a non-English-speaking, barely educated Russian than an English-speaking, college-educated Nigerian, or a physician from Sri Lanka.

I agree with this.

@xtisme

I basically think guys like Buchanan are nutballs, not only for their isolationist stances but for other reasons as well.

I can’t help but like Pat Buchanan, in spite of his racist views. A very personal, perhaps silly, POV, but…

Try to see the reality, xtisme. I am a so called white person, who has until now been able to find contract work in the UK, without having an EU passport. I’ve since rectified that, but the reality remains in that I was able to find work more easily than a non-white, non-EU candidate.

It’s racism. I’m still trying to figure out what my overall personal advantage is (as in my having any control over it), but it seemed clear to me that racism was at work, when I was hired over other candidates…

[Lissa]

@Kizarvexius

Of course racisim is alive and well in America.

I live in a city that is about 80% Hispanic.

This puts those of us who are not Hispanic at a severe disadvantage when it comes to job searches, scholarships, or even getting good service at a restaurant. My ex-wife, for example, couldn’t even get herself hired at Wal-Mart, despite having good job skills. A friend of hers who worked in personnel later told her that her application had been tossed out because it indicated that she did not speak Spanish.

But of course, since we’re “Anglo” (whatever THAT means), ignoring or marginalizing us is perfectly acceptable.

Not that I am bitter.
:rolleyes:

I don’t see how this example shows you or your wife being “marginalized.” After all, racism is about the color of your skin, something you cannot change. They declined to hire your wife because she does not have a certain skill-- not because she was “Anglo.” She could learn Spanish in order to be competitive in the job market in your area. Her skin color is not what is holding her back-- it’s the fact that she doesn’t speak the language of a good portion of the customers.

It makes perfect sense for an employer to give preference to those potential employees who are bi-lingual. As the employer, I would have done the same thing.

[even_sven]

@Kizarvexius

My ex-wife, for example, couldn’t even get herself hired at Wal-Mart, despite having good job skills. A friend of hers who worked in personnel later told her that her application had been tossed out because it indicated that she did not speak Spanish.

Did you ever consider the idea that maybe your ex-wife isn’t qualified for the job? Do you honestly think she could do the job as effectively as someone who can speak Spanish? Spanish has been spoken in Texas for hundreds of years, and in many places it continues to be a main language. This isn’t a matter of race at all, it’s a matter of being able to do the job.

Pat Buchanan makes me laugh for calling Mexico a “non-Western culture”. I still can’t figure out what is non-Western about a Catholic country that speaks a latin language with a very traditional family and gender structure and a strong work ethic.

As for the OP:

I work in a position where I often speak to members of the public in private. I’m always shocked at the racist stuff they tell me. They try to get deals because they are a “fellow white person”, insult my Indian bosses and spout racist words as if they are used to people being cool with their racism-talk. It’s unnerving. I never knew so many people here in Santa Cruz are so blatantly racist, but something about my job really brings it out in them.

[hlanelee]

I was in a restaurant the other day and I over heard the conversation between two gentlemen that were in a position to hire laborers and this was what I heard concerning African American laborers to Mexican American laborers. This is exactly what I heard.

They work harder, one Mexican can do the work of three or four niggers and you don’t have to pay them as much. You just have to keep an eye on your stuff, they’ll steal anything.

Racism is alive and well here in South Carolina!!!