Ah, Frank Sinatra! A wonderful example of 1950s civility: a wildly popular entertainer noted for his ties to organized crime, his physical assaults on photographers, and his much publicized “swinging” lifestyle of sexual promiscuity, alcohol, and gambling. Darn those Beatles for coming along and ruining it all with their funny haircuts!
Pretty decent singer, though.
Starving Artist, I really hope that you are smarter than that or that your years of slavishly listenting to Beck or Hannity or Limbaugh, (or Welch), has not truly impaired your ability to read or to think.
Sarcastically repeating what I have said about the failure of the communist philosophy does not disprove what I said, so it is pretty silly to act as though I have been a proponent of that failed system.
Deliberately ignoring key words in my text, (such as “unbridled” modifying “Capitalism”), makes your attacks on my statements, there, nothing but a straw man argument. If you want to see why people thought (erroneously) that Communism might provide a valid alternative to unbridled Capitalism, read The Grapes of Wrath or any number of works from the 1920s and 1930s that displayed the failings of a system that valued property over person. Note that people throughout the colonial world, (a massive portion of the world in the 1940s and 1950s), saw their colonial shackles as the direct result of Capitalist influences on governments. Or consider that some people looked on the rise of Fascism as the natural result of unchecked Capitalism.
I have never in my life felt that communism (or socialism) was a workable economic system, but you demonstrate a staggering failure of imagination, (or ignorance of history), to be able to align yourself with those who felt that it is “hard to understand why anyone would embrace” those theories. (Underscore mine.)
And mischaracterizing what I have actually said regarding China and the Soviet Union, based on U.S. propaganda of the time does not make your claim stronger, either.
You claimed that
Now, “at that time” in the context of this discussion is the 1950s. I did not claim that either of those countries sat home and built defense systems. They were clearly hostile. However, let us look at what they actually did.
China supported and aided the Korean War in which a nation bordering China was a staging area for U.S. troops hostile to China. Other than that, the only country China has actually conquered was Tibet–a border nation which has had a long involvement with various conquests by pre-Communist China. The Chinese also clearly were involved in the destabilization of Nepal–another border country which they did not actually conquer–and which they were not actively threatening in the 1950s. Communists formed the backbone of anti-colonial resistance throughout Southeast Asia. However, this is pretty understandable given that the capitalist “Western Democracies” were the ones who were continuing to hold those lands in subservience as colonies (or, in the case of the U.S., supporting the other Western countries that were maintaining colonies). However, China did not make any effort to actually conquer Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, or Burma. So claims for Chinese conquest appear to be greatly exaggerated.
The Soviet Union did hold onto, (most of), the land they captured in their battle against Nazi Germany. However, they did not go forth to conquer any more countries–never further attacking Finland; never attacking Turkey; or Afghanistan in the 1950s), and actually, (reluctantly), backed away from Austria while allowing Tito do do his own thing in Yugoslavia. Russia had been invaded five times since Napolean–in 1919, by their WWII allies, the U.K., the U.S., France, Canada–and they were frankly paranoid about being attacked, again. Again, Communists were among the organizers of independence movements in Africa–against the “democratic” colonial powers who were quite content to hang onto their colonies in order to promote their capitalist lifestyles at home.
I make no claim that the U.S.S.R. or China were innocent nations or that they were peaceful stay-at-home types who would not hurt a fly. What I said was that they were not out conquering the world, any more than we were with our subversion of democratic rule in Iran, Guatemala, Nicaragua, and other places (notably Vietnam). Fearing that they would get the edge on us was a legitimate concern as we circled each other in the Great Game, destroying small nations for our own feelings of security. Believing, in 2008, our own propaganda that they intended to march into Washington and establish the U.S.S.A.*, demonstrates an appalling ignorance of their history and ours. (In 1930, it is conceivable that “world communism” was an actual goal of the U.S.S.R. By 1950, internal politics had caused their goals to shift considerably, but we continued to act as though nothing had changed.)
By all appearances from your posts, here, it would seem that you would have cheered the U.S. on. Did you even consider protesting the destruction of democracies (and people) in the various client states where we overthrew elected leaders (or supported their dissolution of constitutions) so that they could murder their own people in the name of “fighting communism”? The parallels between the Athenian Empire (of democracies) and the U.S. over the last fifty years are very remarkable. It is notable that by the end of the Peloponnesian War, that old, nasty oligarchy, Sparta, was being hailed as the liberating hero throughout Greece. (That did not last long, as they resumed their brutal ways pretty quickly, but in the meantime, Athens, promoting “democracy,” had savagely destroyed a number of innocent city states and turned more of them against her.)
It is one thing to note that the largest empires will always struggle for power and that we would prefer that our empire not lose to their empire. It is another thing altogether to pretend that everything we do is good and noble because we’re “the good guys.”
You people have totally derailed this thread. Let us get back to hatin’ on folks, eh?
I don’t know who you are.
But I hate you.
Hate hate hate.
With a capital 8.
K, me too. Thx Bye.
Now how about Marisa Jaret Winokur? She’s fabulous, eh?
Oh, oops, sorry… poster I can’t stand:
Guinistasia. because she’s too goddamned chirpy and good natured all the time. Jesus, woman, have some bad times, will ya?
Dolores Reborn: Man that woman just takes a joke and works it and works it. Shit, learn when to let it go.
Yeaah, that’s all for me. Have a good one.
Since I’m not stating it as a truth, nor using it to accuse an entire group of people of ruining America, I don’t think I need to provide a cite. I never said anything negative about the 1950s, did I? I just don’t think America today is a terrible, degraded place. Perfect, no. Nothing is perfect. Should I provide a cite for that?
I know you think you’re clever, but you can’t exactly turn this around on me, since I haven’t offered a perception of the 1950s. I haven’t slammed all conservatives and blamed them for everything. I haven’t said that society was better today or worse then. YOU have made such statements, so the onus of proof is on YOU. I know it’s uncomfortable, to feel like you have to back up your pecksniffian scolding and doomsaying about America and liberals with cites, but that’s the way it is here.
ETA: Starving Artist, you don’t need to “get back” to me. I’ve been through this with you before, and I do not want to read more of your grandstanding. I know, it’s all the liberals’ fault. Thanks but no thanks on reading more of that from you.
Hey now, Beck’s pretty cool-even if he is a Scientologist. I loved “Diamond Dog”, from Moulin Rouge!.
Abby_Emma_Sasha, I’m hoping your sarcastic about my “chirpiness”, right? I’ve refrained from bitching about my current situation since September, but suffice to say, it’s been downright shitty. And I mean SHITTY. (Health and finance-wise)
(I do agree, however, that fashion was way cooler in the past. I LOVE vintage clothing. Love it!)
I have one: brazil84.
I read quite a few of his posts today. I have a headache now.
I’m going to use a special SDMB solution.
I thought brazil84 was a girl.
I didn’t say that you thought we were worse than McCarthyism. I said that you thought we were worse than Communism, and that McCarthy picked the wrong target.
The left is worse than communism? Oh dear sweet zombie Jeebus. Having talked to people who actually lived in the USSR, I think they could tell our nostalgic friend here a thing or two.
I said nothing of the sort and you both know it.
What I did say is perfectly visible upthread and I’m not gonna get drug into an argument with the two of you about it. If you want to claim I said what you describe, then you can suffer the hit to your credibility when people who read what I had to say with a clear and unbiased mind see how you’ve tried to distort it.
Oh, wait…I have a better idea.
I propose a test…a test of reading comprehension, with Guinastasia as the testee (since she had obviously not seen what I had written and which DMC is mischaracterizing).
So, Guin, how’s about you take a little trip upthread to where I actually made the comment that DMC is mischaraterizing, think about both it and the the context in which it was made, and then come back and tell the class what you think I said?
OH, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! This thread isn’t about commies! It’s barely about posters we hate because they’re commies! But you are forcing me to hate YOU!
Which I don’t, even though you pull posts out of your ass all the time. (shrugging) You’re probably fun to have a (loud) beer or two with. But please stay on topic!
(trying to think of posters I can’t stand–I know of some who can’t stand ME, but I’m at a loss to think of any whose company I wouldn’t enjoy in real life, if they and I behaved ourselves.)
Actually, Santa Ana crossed the Rio Grande first, in a bid to establish the Brazos River I think it was as the correct boundary of Texas. But admittedly, the good folks in Washington were at that time trying to figure out how to get the Southwest. Santa Ana’s move must have seemed like a Heaven-sent present.
Sometimes I wonder if the rest of Mexico would be a nicer place now had we really taken the entire country like some advocated back then. Not saying we should have, just speculating. And not saying Mexico’s not nice, but I’ve lived in the Southwest and spent time in Mexico, and I saw who had the better infratstructure.
Mos def! 
And besides, I tried to let the thread get back on topic when the last poster asked. I really did. But these…these…people around here won’t let me! 
So, I’ll go quietly for now, perhaps to my woefully ignored Pit thread, in which, if the title is to be believed, someone has apparently offered to fuck me.
[Andy Rooney] And why is “Fuck You” an insult anyway? We all like sex, don’t we? I mean, fucking is fun. And it’s hot, too. We become different people when we’re fucking…making funny faces and all that. And some men pay large amounts of money for it. So really, isn’t saying “Fuck You” to someone kind of like saying, “Eat Lobster, asshole”…or perhaps “Drink Scotch, you scumsucking dipshit”? I don’t get it. I really don’t. [/Andy Rooney]
My credibility?
I LOVE him, though I’m an even OLDER fart than you, probably! So old (54) that I still believe liberal thought is America’s saving grace.
Er, I should probably keep on the hayt in this thread, shouldn’t I? If only to maintain my moral high ground?
Yeah, you’re credibility!
You post a snippet of my words upthread and appear to be answering them, but when you’re shown you’re wrong you go and dig out something similar from an entirely different thread two months ago, and then pretend you were speaking of it all along!
What bullshit! That isn’t the way things work around here and you know it.
Still, the funny thing is that despite all that, you’re still wrong! I said (in the previous thread) that liberals in America were (and are) a greater threat to our personal freedoms than Communism was, and that as it turns out McCarthy was fearful of the wrong threat. In the current thread I said liberalism has caused more harm to American society as it existed then than Communism ever had, and that is correct too.
This does not mean that in the worldwide scheme of things - and in light of the tremendous number of people who have suffered and died under Communist rule - that liberals are worse than Communism!
Nor does it mean, as you appear to have dishonestly implied, that I felt McCarthy should have gone after liberals instead.
You are an intellectually dishonest poster and it’s heartening to see you expose your true colors.