Prayers for the unbelieving?

[CarnalK]

So I’m curious, would someone who offers a prayer be offended by this reply:

“Don’t pray for me, pray for wisdom (so that your actions may bring about your hopes)”

See, if you are going to pray I would prefer you worry about yourself as that’s where I believe prayer can actually be effective. By this I don’t mean selfish prayer but merely examine yourself during prayer to become a better person. By lifting yourself you can lift those around you.
(oh yeah… IMHO )

[Mtgman]

*Originally posted by StGermain *
**I’m saying that to one who has no belief in prayer … it should be considered no more trivial or inconsequential than a ribbon or flowers for the dead. To the person who prays (myself included), there is an obvious worth to it. It is anything but trivial. My post was to the perception of the atheist, not the person who prays.
**

Ah, so this is how you believe Athiests should interpret your offer to pray for them? Isn’t that a tad presumptous? People react individually, simply because you see no reason for them to be upset doesn’t mean they don’t have one. You place yourself in their shoes based upon your understanding and interpretation of their beliefs and evaluate how you think they would react. This evaluation leads you to believe they would not be offended. In reality they ARE offended. My guess would be that you don’t understand their beliefs or logical systems as well as you think you did.

**
Honestly, I reserve the right to pray for whomever I please. But generally, when it’s someone who’s religious ideas I know nothing about, I’ll say, “If you aren’t offended, I’ll add you to my prayers”. Even if they are, I’ll still pray for them in times of sickness, etcetera. But the prayer, not the words “You’re in my prayers”, but the actual prayer, gives me comfort. They don’t have to know I’m praying for them for it to be valid. For some people, the knowledge that others are praying for them gives them comfort. To others, it doesn’t. I pray for a lot of people. Some people know I pray for them, some don’t, but my prayers are still said.**

And I would support your right to continue your prayers in any manner you choose. I would also support an Athiest’s viewpoint that you were trying to impose your beliefs upon them by asking your deity to intervene in their life. You believe Athiests should not be offended when Thiests offer to pray for them, or state that they will pray for them. An alternative possibility of an Athiest’s reaction might be something like “You are asking your omnipotent deity to intervene in my life, supressing my free will.” I’m not saying either is correct or incorrect, but both are possible. If you’re not willing to accept that any particular person whose beliefs you are not familiar with(Athiest, Wiccan, Muslim, etc) might react in a negative way to your offer of prayer then you probably shouldn’t offer.(this does not mean, of course, that you can’t pray for them)

All individuals react differently. Several Athiests have spoken up saying they would not be offended. Others say they are mildly offended, some are amused. Some are deeply offended. Unless you know how a person will react, or are willing to deal with the entire gamut of possible reactions, you might be better off to keep from offering prayer to the person.

Enjoy,
Steven

[StGermain]

*Originally posted by Mtgman *

Ah, so this is how you believe Athiests should interpret your offer to pray for them? Isn’t that a tad presumptous? People react individually, simply because you see no reason for them to be upset doesn’t mean they don’t have one. You place yourself in their shoes based upon your understanding and interpretation of their beliefs and evaluate how you think they would react. This evaluation leads you to believe they would not be offended. In reality they ARE offended. My guess would be that you don’t understand their beliefs or logical systems as well as you think you did.

Yes, that is possible. I guess my hypothesis was based on the idea that if they truly disbelieved in God and that prayer was meaningless, they shouldn’t take it any differently than any other seemingly meanless well-meant gesture. I guess I figure people should take into consideration the intention behind the gesture. But just because I think people should be what I think of as considerate doesn’t mean they have to be.

And I would support your right to continue your prayers in any manner you choose. I would also support an Athiest’s viewpoint that you were trying to impose your beliefs upon them by asking your deity to intervene in their life. You believe Athiests should not be offended when Thiests offer to pray for them, or state that they will pray for them. An alternative possibility of an Athiest’s reaction might be something like “You are asking your omnipotent deity to intervene in my life, supressing my free will.” I’m not saying either is correct or incorrect, but both are possible. If you’re not willing to accept that any particular person whose beliefs you are not familiar with(Athiest, Wiccan, Muslim, etc) might react in a negative way to your offer of prayer then you probably shouldn’t offer.(this does not mean, of course, that you can’t pray for them)

But if this atheist doesn’t believe in the existance of a diety, why would it bother them what something was said to nobody? If my friend the wiccan wants to go pray to a tree that I get a job, am I offended? Nope. Although I’d be upset if they sacrificed a chicken. (I know - there is no animal sacrifice in Wiccan beliefs) I don’t want anything hurt on my behalf.

All individuals react differently. Several Athiests have spoken up saying they would not be offended. Others say they are mildly offended, some are amused. Some are deeply offended. Unless you know how a person will react, or are willing to deal with the entire gamut of possible reactions, you might be better off to keep from offering prayer to the person.

And again, if I don’t really know the person well enough to know their religious beliefs (or lack thereof), why shouldn’t I ask if a pray would offend them? If they say that they’d rather I not, I’m not going to insist. I may say the pray in the quiet of my roomanyway, but I won’t burden them with that knowledge.

StG

BTW - my nephew plays that game.

[Esprix]

StG, I don’t think you’re getting Mtg’s point (or at least one of them). If you’re “talking to no one,” you are correct - an Atheist might say, “yeah, sure, doesn’t bother me.” But they also might interpret your statement as an imposition of your beliefs on them (whether it is true or not is irrelevant).

It is a consideration.

Esprix

[StGermain]

Esprix - You’re right. I guess I never felt that someone else’s beliefs imposed anything on me, unless they tried to make me believe in what they believe in. And even then, unless they tried to insist in some way (I’ve had door-to-door evangelists tell me that because I was Catholic I wasn’t going to heaven, and I needed to believe their beliefs or be damned) I didn’t feel an imposition had been made. So a wiccan can tell me she’s doing a spell and it doesn’t make me irritated. I don’t believe it does any good, mind you, but that’s between her and her belief system. Or an atheist can tell me {{{job vibes}} and I don’t think he’s doing some sort of magic. I don’t care what someone else believes, or rather, I don’t feel it’s my place to tell them what to believe. What was important is people were doing what they could with a good heart. Can I feel badly about that? I can’t. But perhaps others can.

StG

[Esprix]

Your motives may be kind, StG, but when you’re constantly told by your family, society and the media that there is something wrong with you for not being Christian and/or believing in God, you tend to develop an abiding distrust of anything having to do with religion. You, personally, may not be an oppressor, but you surely must be aware that you may, at times, be misinterpreted as one.

Esprix

[StGermain]

Esprix - I’ve never felt oppressed, I guess. Not by my faith or my family or my gender (female). My parents always told me I could do whatever I wanted and I believed them. I’ve always felt that being me was the best thing I could be. I’ve never, even when in school, felt the effects of peer pressure. So I guess I normally don’t think other people consider themselves vulnerable to influence.

StG

[Esprix]

Well see? Lesson learned.

Esprix

[Dangerosa]

*Originally posted by StGermain *
****An analogy you might use would be that in your opinion it would be okay for her to pick up a tomato at the store for you, but you’d be uncomfortable if she (while gardening for herself and others) plants a couple tomato plants and tended them all year to give you the fruit. But in her point of view, she enjoys gardening, she’s going to do it anyway, so doing a little extra is just more pleasure for her. It’s a win-win situation.

StG **

Not a win-win situation. She shows up at my door with tomatos and says “Here, I grew these in my garden especially for you.” I don’t like tomatos. They give me gas. If she enjoys gardening, great - garden for herself. Give her produce to pepole who like it.

I end up with tomatos I need to throw away and waste food and her effort. Or find a new home for. And because they were planted “especially for me” my niceness kicks in, and I feel guilty if I just toss them out. (Raised Catholic, you can leave the church, leaving the guilt behind is harder).

I have no problem with her gardening if she enjoys it. But then she isn’t gardening for my sake. Likewise, I have no problem with her showing up with extra tomatos (or remembering me in prayers she was going to say anyway “God, keep safe the children of the world, my family, Fluffy the Poodle, and Dangerosa (but not Esprix)”). But if she claims she planted them for me, she’s wasted her effort - and I’m going to feel bad about her wasting her effort.