Prayers for the unbelieving?

Great Debates
101

Well, of course, it’s possible. But let me give you a little more insight into my thinking.

Imagine this: You suffer a loss of some sort. An acquaintance comes up to you to offer sympathy. He says, “That’s so awful. I’m going to go home and stare ambiguously at the refrigerator for an hour.” You: “Uh, okay.” The emotional intent is there, but the activity is basically meaningless. Maybe they say, “I’m going to buy a bowl of wax fruit and cover it in duct tape for you.” (Or if you’re a fan of Orson Scott Card, you could say you’re going to crawl back and forth in a large room and laboriously count the boards in the floor.)

The individual saying this certainly means well, but the activity he proposes to “make things right” doesn’t seem to bear any relationship to reality. I really don’t mean to be insulting here, but that’s what it’s like for me as an atheist: People tell me they’re planning to fervently speak Korean to their Hello Kitty lunchbox, or tie little bits of thread around the tops of a hundred blades of grass in the lawn, or whatever. My honest response is to say, well, okay, knock yourself out. I’m not angry or anything; it’s just a non sequitur.

I can’t really respond honestly, though, because I know it would be insulting to that individual’s deeply held beliefs, regardless of how senseless they may seem to me. I’m not one of those militant atheists who considers it a mission in life to disabuse those around me of their fantasies. People can believe what they want to believe, and as long as they don’t try to impose those beliefs on me, I won’t say a word unless I’m directly asked.

Telling me you’re praying for me isn’t imposing, necessarily, but it is handing me a mixed gift: In one hand is a well-meant expression of sympathy, which I appreciate, but in the other hand is a neon-pink wind-up sparking Godzilla made out of dried banana paste. They’re being offered as a unit, so it’s difficult for me – in that it feels dishonest – to show gratitude for something that includes an element so irrelevant to my worldview. Half of me wants to say thanks, and the other half wants to say, uh, whatever. Again, that isn’t an angry “whatever,” it’s the perplexed response to a senseless offer: “I think I’ll go poke a badger with a spoon.” So the two impulses average out, and rather than cause trouble, I respond with a noncommittal, “Okay.”

Does that make more sense?

102

Yep, you’re not getting it.

StG

103

Cervaise, I guess the question is whether or not you think it works, would you take time out of your grief to say “By the way, you just offended me when you said that,” or would you just blow it off.

I understand that most of the people I pray for could care less that I do, but it’s just my way of saying I care. If someone said “I’m going to go home and count out black beads into a bowl for you so you’ll feel better,” and I KNEW that was their religious process for showing compasion, I’d say:

“Oh, thanks.” Because I’d interpret it in no other way than “this person care enough to think of me”

J

104

I think this should be a fairly simple idea to work through. First, if you mean to provide comfort to the person you would pray for, their perception of that announcement is the only thing that is improtant. If you are among others of your faith (or a faith similar to yours, I guess) you should feel comfortable to offer your prayer. If you are offering comfort to a stranger, why assume they are religious or want to jave you pray for them?

As stated elsewhere, saying you’ll keep someone in your prayers seems to be a rather knee-jerk reactionary statement. It’s kind of like saying “good morning” to someone. Are you sincerely wishing that person a morning of above average pleasantness, or is it simply a knee-jerk statement to be made as you pass someone in the hall? If you know someone hasn’t been feeling well you might say, “I know you’ve been feeling down lately, and I’d just like to wish you a good morning.” Which statement is more heart-felt?

Non-believers love to hear that others care about them just as much as believers (maybe even more so since there isn’t a deity to back us up). But, if you really care about that person, you could pray for them but just tell them that they are in your thoughts.

One last observation. Isn’t the typical response to “I’ll keep you in my prayers” a thank you? If so, you are putting a non-believer in a position to thank you for nothing in their eyes.

105

<B>Cervaise</b> - Okay, imagine this: your mom is being treated for breast cancer. Your friend shows up the next time you she her wearing one of those little pink breast-cancer ribbons. This ribbon isn’t in any way contributing to a cure for your mother’s breast cancer, or cancer in general. It’s meant to show support for you and your mom in your time of trouble. This may come along with offers of help (can I bring over a meal? If you need a lift to the doctor, I’d be glad to help.) or not. Primarily it is to show you that they care. Appreciating a gesture for the caring it was intended, whether or not the manisfestation of that caring is something you have feelings about, is the point.

I liken it also to flowers at a funeral. Personally, I’d just as soon the money be spent on a charitable cause near and dear to dear to the deceased. I think the placing of expensive dead plants around a corpse is pointless. But the giver of the flowers did so with a good heart, and deserves my thanks.

StG

106

Tagnabbit! I hate vB tags.

StG

107

You just don’t get them, do you?:stuck_out_tongue:

Sorry, couldn’t resist

108

Personally I find all those stupid ribbons for every cause under the sun obnoxious.

But hey, maybe I dont “get it”.

109

Latro - Nope. :stuck_out_tongue:

CarnalK - I’m not a ribbon-wearer, either. But it doesn’t bother me that others are.

StG

110

Then it’s different from prayer isn’t it? Prayer is an appeal to a powerful entity to intercede if possible. To liken prayer to wearing a ribbon is to demean the importance of prayer. It’s downright dismissive of even the possibility that prayers are sometimes answered.

Buying and wearing a ribbon is completely different from praying for intercession in the life of another. The motives may be similar, a concern for the person or a wish to show solidarity with their position, but they are vastly different actions. I don’t think anyone buys a breast cancer ribbon in the hope that their purchase will acutally cure breast cancer. Conversely, it would seem ludicrous for people who pray for a breast cancer cure to do anything less than genuinely hope that their prayer would be answered, as long as it is not outside God’s plan of course. Christ himself did this. “Take this cup away from me… but not my will, but thy will be done.” Do you think he didn’t genuinely hope there was another way to redeem mankind aside from his painful and humaliating execution? Simply because he submitted to the will of the father at the end doesn’t mean he didn’t hope the prayer would be answered.

Again one could argue that a person who feels prayer is powerless has a crisis of faith. Prayers CAN be answered and the action you request be taken as long as it’s not contrary to the will of God himself(according to the Christianity I am familiar with at least). If you don’t believe this, then why do you pray? Do you truly believe prayers are empty words? Or that the ears are deaf? I don’t see how you can compare praying to your loving heavenly father to purchasing a strip of pink ribbon if you believe your father listens and has power in this world.

Enjoy,
Steven

111

Mtgman (Mortgageman?) - Indeed, that wasn’t my intent. I’m saying that to one who has no belief in prayer, who feels that “to show gratitude for something that includes an element so irrelevant to my worldview” is inconvenient, it should be considered no more trivial or inconsequential than a ribbon or flowers for the dead. To the person who prays (myself included), there is an obvious worth to it. It is anything but trivial. My post was to the perception of the atheist, not the person who prays.

Honestly, I reserve the right to pray for whomever I please. But generally, when it’s someone who’s religious ideas I know nothing about, I’ll say, “If you aren’t offended, I’ll add you to my prayers”. Even if they are, I’ll still pray for them in times of sickness, etcetera. But the prayer, not the words “You’re in my prayers”, but the actual prayer, gives me comfort. They don’t have to know I’m praying for them for it to be valid. For some people, the knowledge that others are praying for them gives them comfort. To others, it doesn’t. I pray for a lot of people. Some people know I pray for them, some don’t, but my prayers are still said.

StG

112

These statements are puzzling. The stated assumption is that God has a plan and that God’s will is the determing factor in all occurences. In that case, all you really could legitimately hope to get from a prayer is the strength to endure whatever was in God’s plan or God’s will. Anything else would be asking for God to alter his plan in your favor and because of the interconnected nature of the world, the unintended (by you) consequences of such an alteration might be disasterous.

Writer C.S. Lewis mentioned another problem in his essay, Petitionary Prayer: A Problem Without An Answer. Lewis pointed out a contradictory story about prayer in the Bible and defined the problem thusly. Because your request will be granted only if it is in accord with God’s plan, the expectation that we can have from prayer is always conditional. On the other hand Lewis pointed out many instances in the New Testament where a person was healed by Jesus who said that their absolute faith in Him was what healed them, whether or not that healing had been part of God’s original plan. He cited the case of the woman who was healed by touching His garment in Matt. 9:20-22 as an example. Lewis was never alble to resolve this question to his satisfaction that I can find.

113

I think we have identified the problem…

Whatever happened to the idea of religious faith being an intensely personal experience, not to flaunted?

While I am not offended by an honest, kind-hearted (perception is everything!) “God bless”, “I’ll pray for you/keep you in my prayers”, “God speed”, etc., I do take offense if the comment is perceived to be of the “you poor, ignorant slob, I’ll see if I can fix it with (diety name here) so you don’t suffer for your non-belief” type.

bottom line - the old rule is “a gentleman never unintentionally gives offense” - I would amend that to “a gentleperson actively avoids doing that which might be taken as an offense (unless offense is intended)”.

I do not use derisive terms for dieties in front of anyone I do not know to be comfortable with such terms.

I do not eat beef in the presence of those known to be Hindu.

(unless it is my INTENT to provoke or offend)

114

Interesting thread.

115

happyheathen** - As I said, some people are comforted by the knowledge that they are being prayed for. I don’t think it’s “flaunting” my faith to tell someone they’re in my prayers. And no, I don’t go around saying “I’ll pary from your damned soul, you non-believer!”. But if, as happened to me yesterday, an internet acquaintance says she’s just been diagnosed with breast cancer, it may give her some comfort to know she’ll be prayed for (BTW, my prayer for her was for healing and strength). But I did ask her first if it would be offensive to her. Which it wasn’t. No more than the next person who responded, an avowed atheist, who sent {{{healing vibes}}}. She came to us looking for support. We each gave it in the way we could.

StG

116

There is something else at play here.

I had a conversation about this with a Christian aquaintence. I said “would you be upset if a Wiccan offered to do a spell for you?” She said yes, because that person would be damning their soul on her behalf. Didn’t make any difference that in her mind, the soul was damned already - she just didn’t want to be responsible for any additional damning.

Most non-believers aren’t big on an afterlife. This is probably your only go around. So you spend your time making this life a good place, and enjoying your single chance at life. To waste that time of my behalf makes me uncomfortable.

There is also a scope thing going. If, during Guin’s nightly prayers, she says, “Help these people with their trials” and mentions my name, I’m not contributing to some huge ineffienciency in her life. She starts saying entire rosaries on my behalf, and I’ll start feeling guilty about being an accomplice in an incredible waste of time.

117

Dangerosa - But if Guin doesn’t tell you she’s praying the rosary for you, you shuld have no guilt. In fact, since prayer should help both the person who prays and the recipient of the prayers, she is doing something that she feels is benefical for herself when she prays for you, so there should be no feeling of guilt. An analogy you might use would be that in your opinion it would be okay for her to pick up a tomato at the store for you, but you’d be uncomfortable if she (while gardening for herself and others) plants a couple tomato plants and tended them all year to give you the fruit. But in her point of view, she enjoys gardening, she’s going to do it anyway, so doing a little extra is just more pleasure for her. It’s a win-win situation.

StG

118

I think it also makes a difference if the person who informs an athiest he/she is praying on their behalf believes that all the souls of unbelivers are going to be forever tormented in the depths of hell. If the person praying for me is tolerant of those who don’t have any faith in God, a higher power, Buddha, whomever, then I suppose it’s fine that they pray for me.

However, continuing to pray for me, after being asked expressly not to is insulting.

119

In my understanding of Christian beliefs, this is an accurate statement for a large percentage, possibly a majority of practicing and faithful Christians. There are Christians who do not believe in an active God, but they tend not to ask for direct intercession. It boils down to the question of “Does the person praying believe their prayer can/will be answered?” If they do, then they are indeed inviting their deity to take action in the life of a person who does not acknowledge that deity as their sovereign.
**

Presumably God will not answer prayers which are in conflict with his plan(c.f not granting the “take this cup away from me” request of Christ). My wife and I had a long discussion once that was kicked off by something like this.

W. If God knows the future, and it all comes to pass as he knows, how can humans have free will?

This is the heart of the issue. If we’re simply playing out parts in his plan, then where is the free will? If we have free will, then prayer is powerless(especially prayers for “strength” and “courage” which are both functions of will). A prayer for a purely physical intervention would probably be less offensive to a person who believed their lives were ruled by their own free will. Consider the following possible situations, assume the prayer was granted in both cases.

An Athiest is trapped under a falling tree in the woods. A prayer for divine assistance to lift the tree would probably be fine(although the Athiest would consider it a waste of time). The one offering prayer is asking God to take the Athiest’s life in his hands, but it’s already out of the hands of the Athiest so divine intervention would not violate their belief in thier ability to determine the path their own life takes.(the after-effects of this divine intervention are not part of this scenario and weather or not the Athiest converts afterwards is beside the point)

An Athiest is considering career choices. A prayer for God to grant him “wisdom” in his choice would probably violate his belief in self-determination. Suddenly the one offering prayer is asking thier deity to take the Athiest’s life in his hands and away from the Athiest himself. This scenario would violate the Athiest’s belief in self-determination.

That’s the crux of the issue. Divine intervention precludes free will. The two are mutually exclusive. If Person A prays for Person B to receive divine intervention(and they truly believe in the power of prayer and have faith their prayer will be answered) then they are indeed asking their deity to violate the free will of Person B. For some values of Person B, this will be offensive.

Enjoy,
Steven

PS. My username is based off the card game Magic: the Gathering. Commonly called MtG.

120

Hey, I used to play that a lot.
Still have a box full of old cards.

I am a bit at odds with myself over the OP.
I like to think of myself as level headed and a non-believer.
God doesn’t exist and when you die, you die.

Yet, when someone says they’ll pray for me that…this or that, I get a feeling like they are working some ‘Magik’ on me. Doubly so because over here they’d be more likely to say ‘I’ll light a candle for you.’
This somehow makes me feel very uncomfortable. On more than one occasion I have asked them not to do this.