Per Jodi’s post, if a theist said to me “I’ll say a prayer for you, if that’s all right with you.”, I can’t imagine a circumstance where I’d say no, since it would be fairly clear they were respecting my right to disbelieve. It’s not the act that bothers me, it’s the (often) implicit condescension in the statement in reference to the act.
the answer is, of course, you may pray for whomever you wish. why should someone else, at their behest, dictate the relationship that you have with your chosen deity?
Nothing is wrong with “praying etc., etc. …” and I’ve never said there is.
No I’m not suggesting that, but you have hit upon a neat way of avoiding an answer.
I guess this one is over my head. I don’t see how it applies.
You are beating a dead horse. Your point about my inability to prove that prayer has no effect was conceded in my first post at the top of page 2 of the thread.
Further discussion is pointless. There is no way to prove the efficacy of prayer, or the lack of it. And my first post to the thread I answered the question in the OP, writing that “of course” I have no objection to anyone praying for me. I don’t care how people waste their time, and if it makes them feel better - 'sallright.
And here I had the impression you were a UU Sanday school teacher. Oh my, how did that happen?
Far as I know, being an atheist in no way bars someone from being a UU sundey school teacher. Of course, neither does being a Christian, Wiccan, Jew…
Not in those exact words. However, you did assert – without the tiniest fraction of evidence – that physicians who are prayed for do not apply any more wisdom or strength than those who are not. This is an unmistakable claim that such prayers are futile.
What an ironic assertion! After all, you keep dodging the point that “effort” is not the same as “wisdom and strength” – and by your own admission, you could not defend your claim regarding prayer.
The problem is that you keep conflating separate issues. If you can’t keep them straight, then of course it will seems as though your ciritcs are avoiding the answers.
Yeah, I guess it is.
You were asking whether we would choose a highly competent, Harvard-graduated physician over a less competent one who has been prayed for. Apart from presenting a false dilemma, your question does not address the overwhelming majority of real-world situations. In many cases, the person praying does NOT select the physician in question, and so this choice becomes irrelevant. Moreover, even the most capable, brilliant and conscientious physician can make mistakes – and so there is validity in praying for his wisdom and strength.
Once again, you are conflating separate issues. You may have conceded that point, but you continued to dispute my explanation of how “effort” can not be equated with “wisdom and strength.” This distinction should be pretty common-sensical, but it seems to me that you don’t consider such details to be important.
JThunder-" Moreover, even the most capable, brilliant and conscientious physician can make mistakes – and so there is validity in praying for his wisdom and strength."
You have also proven the validity of four-leaf clovers,rabbits’ feet and rain dances. If you believe there is an effect from praying it is up to you to demonstrate it simply for expedience. If we went at it your way we would be obliged to “disprove” every concievable thought,action or planetary alignment that presumes to guide the future.
Pray all you like but until I see otherwise it’s the same to me as wishing on a star.
CarnalK, perhaps I stated that poorly. Remember, I was addressing the very specific claim that a competent, well-trained physician should have no need for prayer. Now, one might dispute the validity of prayer itself, but the point remains – mere competency, or even extreme competency, does not guarantee performance.
Even the most competent person can make mistakes. If you believe in prayer, then there is no reason to withhold these prayers simply because the physician is competent, or even brilliant.
Jodi always says stuff smarter than me. :: kickin’ dirt::
I understand that some people don’t think prayer works, and that people are vehement athiests, or maybe they’re Buddhist or Jewish or Wiccan…or whatever, and when I tell them I’m praying for them, I would never want them to think that I’m trying to IMPOSE SOME BELIEF on them. Especially since I never mention anything about my beliefs beyond the words I’ll pray for you.
And it’s like Jodi said, it’s hard for me to explicitly “not think of somebody” if they’re going through a hard time. Esprix, (just as an example, sugar) just broke both his legs in a barrel race at the gay rodeo, and what am I supposed to do? Just…pretend like I don’t hope he feels better? The way I hope people feel better is by praying for them to do so. I don’t know…it’s confusing.
Talking to someone - anyone - about your problems and concerns doesn’t bother me; in fact, I encourage it. Asking someone to intervene on my behalf or “look out” for me, however, is presuptuous (IMHO).
I suppose, though, that if I never knew you did it, I couldn’t possibly be offended.
In the end, do what you will - life will, I’m sure, continue apace.
Esprix
To those who object to being prayed for (Cervaise in particular) -
If someone says “I am thinking good thoughts about you, and want you to be happy”, do you snarl “How condescending! As if what you think is going to affect me!”
When someone wishes you a Happy Birthday, do you reply “Up yours” because wishes never come true?
When someone close to you dies, and a friend says “I’ll miss him”, do you bark “As if that made any difference - he’s dead, you smarmy snot!”.
Do you think it’s possible you might be a little too touchy on the subject?
Jodi - I think we agree, except that I make no effort to curb my impulse to pray for people. Although I have seen the use of the phrase as a way to try to offend - the “I’ll be praying that you see the error of your ways before you burn in the pits of hell, you benighted sinner” sort of capstone to an argument. I am ashamed to say that I have done so myself.
For which I apologize in general, and ask forgiveness, and promise to try to do better.
Which is why, before I previewed, this last sentence read differently than it does now.
Regards,
Shodan
That is SO not true. I wish I could say stuff half as well as you can. 
No, actually, I don’t.
But thanks for asking.
Esprix
Here’s an interesting perspective. I’m a big fan of science fiction/fantasy. I’m going to relate a story from a book I read about a polythiestic society in a fantasy world.
A world has 20 gods. That’s all, 20, no more, no less. This is well known among all it’s inhabitants. There is some question about whose god is the best, and whose god is right to follow, but no question that someone’s god is the only god.
Two followers of one of the gods, a husband and wife(although there is very little acknowledged love between them, the marriage was political, the embers and attraction are there, but since they’re from clans who were ancient enemies their pride keeps them apart) fall into the hands of a cult of followers of another god. The second god is a god of evil and is almost banished from the world because all but a handful of people have forsaken belief in him. The way this cult keeps their god and their numbers alive is by constant breeding within their group. They capture and forcibly convert other people and use them to grow their own numbers.
One of the evil cultists takes a liking to the woman of the couple. He decides to make her his own after their forced conversion. Well some events go awry and it turns out that he helps the couple escape before their conversion. He no longer has the power to forcibly convert her and drug her into a willing stupor in their citadel. So he tells her. “I am going to pray to my god. I will pray that he give you to me to bear me a son.”
This scares the crap out of her. In a world where many gods, all of which are powerful enough to make a woman submit to the desires of a man she despises, this is a valid threat. She truly worries that his evil god will take her and make her love the man against her will. That he will override her ability to make her own choices and pull strings inside her heart that will significantly alter her life.
I think there is a decent parallel here to the situation described in the OP. The lady who reacted to Jarbabyj saying she’d pray for her was obviously thinking that Jarbabyj meant for direct divine intervention in her life. In a life where she had already decided that divine intervention wasn’t possible. It was seen as a direct threat to the woman’s worldview.
In the case I just related, prayer is indeed something to be afraid of and to resent. Imagine someone sneaking into your room late at night, drugging you, and hauling you off to some secret lab. Then giving you a lobotomy and brainwashing, all against your will, in order to change your opinion about something. Maybe they’re doing it for personal gain(as the man in the story was) or maybe they’re doing it for what they believe is the best thing for you, or society in general. Maybe they even do it out of some sense of obligation to their own faith(the duty to evangelize). The result is the same. Agencies outside of your control forcibly changed your beliefs.
I can’t see an athiest taking such a thing offensively. Frankly I think an athiest should fall over laughing if they are going to have any sort of extreme reaction to being told they’re being prayed for. I could see a Pagan or Discordian taking offense at being prayed for because it essentially means that the deity being prayed to is sovereign in their life, as opposed to the diety they believe is sovereign. It’s like saying, “My god IS your god, weather you acknowledge it or not. He holds power over your life.” That’s pretty insulting when you consider that the person you’re making this type of statement to has probably considered evidence for your deity and rejected it. Like the story suggests, it would be the equivelent of saying “I don’t care what your belief is, my god IS sovereign in your life.”
I know, and I think everyone here knows **Jarbabyj]/b] didn’t mean it like that. But I can see why it could be considered an offensive statement. Saying such a thing in certain parts of Jerusalem on a Saturday could get a person stoned to death. Implying that a force someone doesn’t believe in holds power over a person is pretty nerve-wracking for the person in question.
Steven
A thin line was brought up that I wanted to mention.
If your prayer were to go, “Please give him the strength he needs,” or “please help him find the strength he needs,” that wouldn’t sit well with me.
If, however, in your course of reviewing your concerns with your diety-of-choice, you were to say, “I hope he finds the strength he needs,” that wouldn’t.
The difference is intervention from a being that I don’t think exists, and the implication is that it does, which makes me wrong and, by extension, “unsaved,” which has been ingrained to me as meaning “dirty heathen.” (Yes, I realize not all Christians feel this way about me, but it’s a visceral reaction to what I’ve been taught - I’m working on it.) Without that intervention, you’re trusting me that I can get through my life on my own, and that, in turn, validates what I believe.
Does that make sense? I realize I’m extrapolating a bit, but people are asking for reasons. (Besides, feelings don’t have to be logical.)
Esprix
Er, my third sentence should end, “… that would,” as in “that would sit alright with me.”
Thank you.
Esprix
I have a good friend, an avowed atheist (who was gang-raped by some fellow campers at Methodist church camp) who knows I am Catholic. And when I’m troubled, he’ll recommend I pray, in fact will say “Talk it over with the Virgin”. He isn’t offended that I pray for him sometimes, and I’m not offended that he, who doesn’t believe, will advise me to pray. I know my friend wants happiness and peace for me, and he knows that for me, prayer is one way to obtain that. He knows that I want only the best for him, and isn’t offended that I offer intercessory prayers for him.
StG
** StGermain** do you sometimes pray to the Virgin Mary?
Reason I ask is because someone, in another thread, is emphatically denying that there are Catholics that pray to Mary or the Saints.
For me, if someone sincerely wants to pray for my wellbeing in a nontheological crisis (e.g., a broken leg, but not a disbelieving soul), I’ll have conflicting emotions.
On the one hand, I’m touched that they care for me and want to show it.
On the other hand, it makes me feel oogy to be prayed for. As if people are working magic on me, or spying on me. It’s not very rational, but it’s how I feel.
So if someone politely tells me that they’re gonna pray for me, and they mean it as a way of showing that they care for me, then I’ll do one of two things:
-Thank them, and hide my discomfort
-Thank them, screw up my face apologetically, and ask them if they’d actually mind not praying for me, because it made me uncomfortable.
If I asked them not to pray for me, I’d be annoyed if they did so (although I wouldn’t mind them just talking to their deity about me).
When I was a radical activist, I knew a guy who was punched in the face by a drunk logger, knocked unconscious. It was clearly an assault, and several of us wanted to press charges. But this guy was an anarchist pacifist, and he really didn’t like the government, and he was adamant that we not get the government to intercede on his behalf.
We respected his wishes (even though we thought he was being kinda foolish), and if I asked someone not to ask God to intercede on my behalf, I’d hope they’d respect my wishes as well.
Daniel
Latro - Praying to does not equal worshipping. Yes, I pray to saints and to the Virgin Mary. I ask for their intercession and prayers. “St. Michael the Archangel, pray for us”. “St. Joseph, Patron saint of workers, please help me find a job that pays enough to feed my dogs”. “Holy Mary, Mother of God, you know the trials of human life, of faith and prayer. Help me live a devout life.” We believe the saints can intercede (hence miracles when saints names are invoked), but that saints are saints because of their devotion to God or because God has (for whatever reasons He deems) given them extraordinary atttention. Note that they aren’t gods, but that they are special because of their closeess with God. Sort of like asking a friend to ask his father (or mother, gender is unimportant) for a favour because your friend enjoys a closer relationship with his parents than you, who may respect them but aren’t as connected, would.
Also, we don’t pray to statues, but to the saint they represent.
StG
I must say I’m having a hard time grasping the very subtle difference between ‘there is no other god but god’ and then there are appear to be a number of lesser gods, like Satan, Angels, Mary and Saints.
"No, no, no " you rush in “they are not gods, they are…uhm, just other supra-natural beings”.
Talking to these beings and asking them for things does somehow not constitute worship.
So, if I pray in front of a statue of Astarte and ask her to make sure that my first-born will be a son. I am not really worshipping Astarte, merely asking her to intervene.
And of course I wasn’t talking to the statue but to the nice lady it represents.
There is something here that I’m just not getting.