Prayers for the unbelieving?

Great Debates
61

Poor example. The lady, assuming she exists, was obviously incomptetent to do this particular task. So is it your claim that if a doctor is incompetent someone praying for the patient will remove this incompetence?

If you have a choice between the lowest ranking graduate of a third rate medical school with every Christian in the world praying for his success and the top ranked graduate from Harvard with 20 years experience in medicine behind him but no praying, which would you choose as your doctor?

It is conceivable that no one anywhere can do anything with competence unless they are being prayed for. It is conceivable that praying will remove mistakes, errors in judgement and lack of knowledge. It is conceivable that God is so inept that He needs to be reminded through prayer that one of his favorite creatures is in dire need of help with a serious illness.

It makes one wonder why God doesn’t just remove the illness directly without going through the cumbersome process of having a physician go through 12 years of training, having available the resources of an entire medical community if needed and the accumulated wisdom of 150 years or so of scientific medical knowledge, plus the assistance of people praying hard in order to cure the disease.

62

—I’d never imagine that you’d keep well wishes for someone to yourself.—

Praying, at least as many understand it, is very different from simply wishing someone well. It is a very personal and private communion with god. Some people don’t even believe that it is right to ask god for things: only to confess and ask for his spiritual comfort. To turn it into a matter of normal trade and interchange with other people seems somehow wrong.

—It’s almost a STANDARD issue statement in my community and/or family “my thoughts and prayers are with you”. “You’ll be in my prayers”. I say it all the time.—

That may be, but you should realize that this practice is based off a particular theology, and particular cultural practice. You can’t assume that everyone sees it the same way. It isn’t just nonbelievers that have different interpretations of your statement.

—I’m just letting someone know that I care about them, and whatever I can do to make their life easier, I’m going to do it.—

Well, that’s just not what “I’m praying for you” means to some people. That’s the problem.

63

That’s precisely the issue. It’s so standard for you that you forget that it’s not necessarily so for other people. You came to consider that “I’ll pray for you = I care for you”. Rarely if ever anybody tells me “I’ll pray for you” Hearing that, I find it totally unhelpful and irrelevant. I feel totally unconcerned by your relation with your god, and I’d tempted to say : “ok, please let me alone and go praying your favourite deity or planting your lettuces, whichever you feel like doing, and I’m going to try to find someone who will be actually helpful or supportive”

64

I just said that I say this when I am otherwise unable to be helpful or supportive. If I am there, with you and there’s a tractor on your foot, I’m not going to just stand around and say a prayer.

But if you’re going in for brain surgery in Austria and I can’t be there, you will be in my prayers.

And someone can give help and support while also being faithful to their god. I can issue first aid AND say a prayer.

65

Here on the Straight Dope, you can get an argument at the drop of a hat, and not a few carry hats around with them for that very purpose. I think I should point out at this time that although I don’t personally discuss my prayers, I know that the overwhelming numbers of non theists I know are not offended by the spoken assurance that “I will pray for you” if offered in a sincere and caring way.

On the other hand, I am deeply offended when a proselytizing believer uses the promise of prayer as a passive aggressive way of pointing out his personal disapproval of my actions, or faith. The exact words might be the same, but communication between people relies on much more than words. Sanctimony is unsympathetic, however the words might protest otherwise. False sympathy in the name of my Lord offends me greatly.

Perhaps the matter that offends those here is not the sincere intent to pray for the comfort or healing of another, but the assumption of superiority implicit even before the “offer” to pray is made. And in that, I find much to be sympathetic about. That is not charity of the soul, that is self aggrandizement, and naked contempt. “The poor deluded heathens don’t even know how pitiful they are, so it’s up to me, in my grand wisdom, to show God that they are worthy of His attention.” No, thanks. I don’t want that prayer, either.

I wish I could assure my heathen friends that that was not what is being offered. Sadly, I am all too sure that at times, that is precisely what is being offered.

But don’t worry, I will pray for them. :slight_smile:

Tris

66

Here on the Straight Dope, you can get an argument at the drop of a hat, and not a few carry hats around with them for that very purpose. I think I should point out at this time that although I don’t personally discuss my prayers, I know that the overwhelming numbers of non theists I know are not offended by the spoken assurance that “I will pray for you” if offered in a sincere and caring way.

On the other hand, I am deeply offended when a proselytizing believer uses the promise of prayer as a passive aggressive way of pointing out his personal disapproval of my actions, or faith. The exact words might be the same, but communication between people relies on much more than words. Sanctimony is unsympathetic, however the words might protest otherwise. False sympathy in the name of my Lord offends me greatly.

Perhaps the matter that offends those here is not the sincere intent to pray for the comfort or healing of another, but the assumption of superiority implicit even before the “offer” to pray is made. And in that, I find much to be sympathetic about. That is not charity of the soul, that is self aggrandizement, and naked contempt. “The poor deluded heathens don’t even know how pitiful they are, so it’s up to me, in my grand wisdom, to show God that they are worthy of His attention.” No, thanks. I don’t want that prayer, either.

I wish I could assure my heathen friends that that was not what is being offered. Sadly, I am all too sure that at times, that is precisely what is being offered.

But don’t worry, I will pray for them. :slight_smile:

Tris

67

Well first of all, you’re the one who claimed that “level of effort” was the same as “wisdom and strength.” I merely used an extraordinary example to show that they are not.

Besides, there are DEGREES of incompetence. Some doctors are wiser and more careful than others. Others are competent, but more prone to error. It is thus perfectly reasonable to hope and pray that a physician will apply maximum effort AND exercise all the wisdom available to him or her.

Again, let’s suppose that you have a competent physician. What’s wrong with praying that this physician will act with both wisdom and strength? Everyone makes mistakes, after all – even the most intelligent, conscientious and careful among us. You seem deadset on classifying everyone as either “competent” or “incompetent,” when in reality, there are numerous shades between the two extremes.

Are you seriously suggesting that those are the only two options? I think you’re creating a false dilemma. Moreover, in many cases, the person who’s praying is not the same one who selects the physician in question.

David, it is abundantly clear to me that you have no support for your blanket claim that physicians exercise the same exact level of wisdom and strength, regardless of whether they are being prayed for or not. The fact that you present this belief as incontrovertible, obvious fact (“I suppose you realize…”) makes your inability to substantiate this claim all the more disappointing.

68

Well first of all, you’re the one who claimed that “level of effort” was the same as “wisdom and strength.” I merely used an extraordinary example to show that they are not.

Besides, there are DEGREES of incompetence. Some doctors are wiser and more careful than others. Others are competent, but more prone to error. It is thus perfectly reasonable to hope and pray that a physician will apply maximum effort AND exercise all the wisdom available to him or her.

Again, let’s suppose that you have a competent physician. What’s wrong with praying that this physician will act with both wisdom and strength? Everyone makes mistakes, after all – even the most intelligent, conscientious and careful among us. You seem deadset on classifying everyone as either “competent” or “incompetent,” when in reality, there are numerous shades between the two extremes.

Are you seriously suggesting that those are the only two options? I think you’re creating a false dilemma. Moreover, in many cases, the person who’s praying is not the same one who selects the physician in question.

David, it is abundantly clear to me that you have no support for your blanket claim that physicians exercise the same exact level of wisdom and strength, regardless of whether they are being prayed for or not. The fact that you present this belief as incontrovertible, obvious fact (“I suppose you realize…”) makes your inability to substantiate this claim all the more disappointing.

69

I was trying to think of why the idea of some people praying for me would bother me, and I think this is it.

I don’t believe in God, but the idea that some people are praying for me would bother me. There are also people I would have no problem if they prayed for me. Perhaps you should ask if you can pray for someone first. If you don’t want to do that, then I suppose you can pray anyway without telling the person about it.

70

I think Dr. Lao is right.

I pray for people whether they want me to or not. I just don’t tell them what I am doing if they don’t want to hear about it, or if they will interpret my desire to do some good for them as an insult.

Besides, God answers prayers whether I tell you about it or not.

Regards,
Shodan

71

jarbaby: I’m an atheist. I was a curious agnostic for most of my life; it’s only in the last couple of years that I’ve really come down solidly on the opinion that “no God” explains a lot more than “one or more Gods.” Just so you know where I’m coming from.

And while Shodan and Dr. Lao have a definite point – that certain people use announcements of prayers for a veiled purpose beyond a simple expression of goodwill, and that my reaction to these people will be very different from others – I just want to make it clear: I don’t think prayer does anything. You can spend your time doing what you want, and, hey, it doesn’t affect me one way or the other.

But here’s the big thing: Don’t expect me to be grateful for it. I understand that, for some (or most) people, telling somebody “I’ll pray for you” is simply a different way of saying, “I hope things turn out well.” But you could say the same thing about somebody who said sympathetically, “Oh, that’s too bad; I’ll go home and pour a bag of Chips Ahoy on the bed and roll around on them,” as if that might make a difference.

I think the woman who snapped at you was definitely rude, but it’s probably merely a stressed-out extension of where I’m coming from. When people tell me they keep me in their prayers, I respond noncommitally: “Oh, okay.” I take the empathy, and leave the action on the table. To me, it sounds like the woman felt like she had a choice between “thanks” and “no thanks.” If I say “thanks,” then I imply I take the prayer seriously (which I don’t); if I say “no thanks,” well, I seem like a jackass.

If you feel compelled to offer this kind of sentiment again, I suggest you replace it with, “I’ll think good thoughts about you” or something to that effect. Yeah, it’s sort of the “winter celebration” rephrasing of “Christmas party,” but it’s a lot less likely to rub people the wrong way.

72

i am skipping the rest of the posts, so forgive me if my answer seems out of context or repetitive in light of the other posts…

i am an atheist. however, i consider such a gesture by a friend to be a beautiful way to show their love, kindness and caring. this is because i understand their underlying feeling behind such an emotion.
so:

is it rude and/or inappropriate for me to pray for people who don’t believe in my God?

Not in my opinion.

is it rude and/or inappropritae for me to pray for people who don’t believe in my God and have expressed a desire to have me not pray for them ?

that i’ll leave to you and the relationship you share with said person. i guess it’s debatable, but i’d lean towards ‘don’t pray’.

73

Sorry, jar, but count me in the “please don’t pray for me” camp. If someone were to tell me that, and mean in it in a sincerely caring, non-witnessing way, I’d be just as polite and caring when I say, “Thank you, really, but please don’t.”

I know your intentions, but it squicks me nonetheless, and I’ll fully admit it has nothing to do with you as an individual nor as a Christian.

Of course, now I feel bad for feeling that way, 'cause you’re such a nice person. :frowning:

Esprix

74

Cervaise, I certainly appreciate your perspective and were the need to arise I wouldn’t pray for you, but I’m genuinely curious: why does thanking someone for praying for you imply that you believe in the power of prayer? Given that you understand that people often use the expression as a general way of wishing you well, it seems to me like thanking them for praying for you is essentially equivalent to thanking them for keeping them in their thoughts and hoping things turn out for the best. Or do you not wish to thank people for doing that, either, since presumably you don’t believe that wishing people well does any tangible good?

75

SHODAN says:

And, see, I don’t. And I think you and I are both Christians and people of general good will (or trying to be). But if I know a person does not want me to pray for him or her, then I do not. Because, really, I don’t think my prayers are necessary for the will of God to be done, and I think I must respect the beliefs and wishes of my fellows – even if those beliefs are that my deeply-held faith is a crock and those wishes are that I stay far, far away from them with it. So if a person ever responded to my “I’m praying for you” with “Please don’t,” then I wouldn’t. I would respect their wishes. I would probably offer up a simple and quick “please be with him/her” and leave it at that. Maybe even that much violates the “don’t pray for me” prohibition, but I’m not sure I could do better than (less than) that.

And that’s a problem that I think some of the more . . . what? hostile to prayer? anti-prayer? . . . . may not appreciate: Many people of faith (not just Christians) offer up their problems and concerns and worries (including worries about their friends, and the problems and concerns and worries of their friends) to God through prayer, in a way that is perhaps less structured than “Lord, please give Lassie the strength to pull Timmy from the well” – maybe more like “Lord, please be with Timmy and his family.” To say “Please don’t pray for me” is almost like saying “Please don’t think of me” – it’s hard to do. When I am offering up my concerns, and if your situation is one of my concerns, it is difficult for me to not offer that up. I would have to consciously try to leave you out: " . . . And I’m worried about ESPRIX . . . whoops, scratch that, not worried about ESPRIX. Well, I am worried about him, but I don’t want to talk to You about it. Well, I do want to talk to You about it, but he’s asked me not to . . ." Meanwhile a little voice in the back of my mind may well be going “please be with him; please let him be okay.” And how do I shut that little voice up? It’s easy to, say, refrain from writing your name down on the list of those to be prayed for in a church; it’s far harder to stop from hoping that God will be with you in a time of trouble. And it’s a fine line between that unvoiced “hope” and an unvoiced prayer. But to the extent I can, I do try to refrain from praying for those who don’t want me to do so. I can certainly stop directing formal prayers on their behalfs, and I would if asked. My respect for them must trump my desire to ask God to be with them.

But then I do not say “I will pray for you” or “you’ll be in my prayers” if I don’t intend to do so. In fact, I think having told someone I will offer up a prayer for them, I have a literal obligation to do so. So without being critical of others who employ the phrase differently, it is not merely a pleasantry for me, akin to saying “I’ll be thinking about you.” If I say “I will say a prayer for you” then I will say a prayer for you. (Maybe more than one, but one for sure.) I owe it to you, and I owe it to God. I think (hope?) many people are comforted by knowing others are praying for them, and I don’t want that belief to be an empty one.

But in large part due to this Board, where I have realized some people do not appreciate prayer, I now say “I’ll say a prayer for you, if that’s all right with you.” No one has yet said “please don’t,” but it wouldn’t offend me if they did. But neither do I assume it’s a gesture that will not be appreciated; in my experience, it is taken gratefully (“thank you” meaning “thank you, really”) or neutrally (“thank you” meaing “whatever”). It does not IME give offense – probably because virtually everyone knows it isn’t meant to be offensive. If someone did tell me it offended them, I would apologize. But I would (and will) continue to offer prayers for those who don’t mind.

76

:smack: And here I had the impression you were a UU Sanday school teacher. Oh my, how did that happen?

77

I’m not a believer but I’d accept it in the spirit intended, that you are giving more than a fleeting regard for my circumstances. I would be grateful for the consideration.

78

grien, I can be respectful and still not believe what others believe and ask them not to get me involved. Now that is being UU. :smiley:

Esprix

79

Well, can I at least say, “I’ll be thinking of you?”

80

Nothing is wrong with “praying etc., etc. …” and I’ve never said there is.

No I’m not suggesting that, but you have hit upon a neat way of avoiding an answer.

[quote]
Moreover, in many cases, the person who’s praying is not the same one who selects the physician in question.

[quote]

I guess this one is over my head. I don’t see how it applies.

You are beating a dead horse. Your point about my inability to prove that prayer has no effect was conceded in my first post at the top of this page.

Further discussion is pointless. There is no way to prove the efficacy of prayer, or the lack of it. And my first post to the thread said that I have no objection to anyone praying for me. I don’t care how people waste their time, and if it makes them feel better - fine.