Well, to imply that doctors don’t try their best for all whether or not a prayer is said to reinforce that mandate is to say that doctors ignore their Hippocratic oath in some cases.
I think asking for a cite in this case is overdoing cites just a tad.
Quote:
Then Dreamer said,
“That’s not true.”
I don’t think Dreamer did it to be noticed, but I do think she did it to let the rest of us know how superior she is to us. She thinks she’s in on a big secret and she’s more special than the rest of us because “Someone” whispered in her ear. She considers us pathetic (otherwise, why would we need saving?) and unenlightened. Not very christian, and unbearably tiresome.
I did apolgize in the other thread for offending anyone and I do mean it. I’m not superior to anyone. I certainly do not think any of you are pathetic. Please don’t put those words in my mouth.
I made a mistake. I apolgized. I’m embarrassed that I went against the word of God. OK. I did not mean it to come out this way and I’m sorry it did.
Ya know, EchoKitty, I (mildly) chastised dreamer in the other thread for presuming to know what’s in another person’s heart or mind. The same thing applies to you.
It is presumptuous in the extreme to claim that dreamer feels “superior . . . to us” and “more special than the rest of us,” or that she “considers us pathetic . . . and unenlightened.” If you want to complain about being prayed for, that’s fine. But it is poor manners–and bad debating–to ascribe those kinds of unexpressed thoughts and motives to another poster.
JThunder: Sorry, I wasn’t totally clear in my previous post. If someone wants to pray for me to become a Christian, that’s their business. They can go ahead a pray their knees off, makes no difference to me. It’s when they go out of their way to tell me about the prayer that it becomes rude and insulting.
Well, to imply that doctors don’t try their best for all whether or not a prayer is said to reinforce that mandate is to say that doctors ignore their Hippocratic oath in some cases.**
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Perhaps, but that’s not what jarbabyj was talking about. Rather, she said that she prays “for the wisdom and strength of doctors.” Wisdom and strength. Obviously, that is not at all the same as saying that these doctors “don’t try their best.”
It is perfectly possible for a doctor to try his or her best, but to make a careless mistake, or to lack wisdom, or to face frustration in a difficult case. Clearly, jarbabyj’s intent is to pray against these pitfalls.
I heartily disagree. Your exact words were:
In other words, your assertion was about their wisdom and strength, and not about the level of effort they exert. In effect, you claim that prayer has no effect in these circumstances – that the physicians receive no extra wisdom or strength whatsoever. Your phrasing (“I suppose you realize…”) also insinuates that this is objective, verifiable truth.
So once again, I ask… can you provide a cite? Can you provide positive evidence for that claim?
I’m not sure in what way praying for wisdom and strenght of doctors is any different than praying for recovery. In both cases, you’re asking god to interevene directly for the benefit of the person you’re praying for. Either god intervene, either he doesn’t. And I don’t see a reason why a particular kind of intervention could be expected while another couldn’t be…
For my part, if one person, a friend or acquaintance, tells me that he or she is praying for me, I don’t get offended. I might think that it is pointless, except for the comfort if offers the person praying, and I might even mention that, if I know the person well enough, but I don’t get upset. I take it as a gesture of kindness, particularly if the person isn’t praying for my religious conversion.
Apparently the person who snapped at you doesn’t see it that way. Then again, she was going through some hard times, and that can affect a person’s behavior.
I weighed in briefly in that other thread, in a mildly negative way. Even if I think all prayer is pointless, I see a big difference in the two situations. One is a friend trying to offer comfort to a friend; the other is person telling a large group of people that they are all wrong and that she will be asking God to convince us of that.
“I’ll pray for you – and your fat ass.” Now that’s rude.
Matthew 6:5-6 is condemning people who make a big show of their prayers, so that folks will admire their righteousness. I don’t think Jesus meant to prohibit people from talking about prayer at all - or even from praying in public.
In the OP, it’s just a heartfelt expression of concern and support. I certainly wouldn’t be offended by that - no matter what the religion of the person offering prayer.
I would think that the level of effort doctors exert consists of “their wisdom and their strength.”
Nope. I made an unprovable claim. Naughty, naughty me.
Obviously not, for reasons which I already explained. Do you require further explanation?
I know a gal who unsuccessfully tried to raise money for the non-profit organization that she led. She worked 'round the clock for weeks, creating newsletters and fundraising appeal letters. However, she did not have enough wisdom to have someone proofread the materials she wrote. She also displayed poor judgment in her artistic choices, and thereby produced mediocre material. Finally, she was lacking in strength, for she was subject to frequent emotional breakdowns.
The bottom line: Her board of directors gave her an A+ for effort, but were severely disappointed in her wisdom and her emotional strength. Clearly, effort is not the same as wisdom, and it is not the same as strength.
I’d say that telling an non-believer that you will pray for them isn’t the right thing to do. It’s their personal choice how to take it (some will just take it in stride, some will get angry), but they do not view it as the show of support as it might be seen in Christian circles. Praying for them is your own buisness, for your own support, and hoping it does help, but telling them about it can seem a little disrespectful. Instead, just tell them that they have your support, you’ll help them, etc. That confers the same message, but in their terms.
Of course, saying you’ll pray for them after they’ve talked to you about their unbelief isn’t exactly the best of manners. That will very likely hurt them or anger them quite a bit.
It should also be said, that when someone is in grief or other intense emotional state, they might take something the wrong way, without really thinking about it. Especially if the person is a non-believer, I can see how saying “I’ll be praying for you.” could be construed as a trite statement, on par with such platitudes as “It’ll get better.”, or “I know how you feel.” Altered emotional states seldom bring out the best in people.
—The issue is…if you are a non-believer and I told you I was praying for you…would you be offended? And is it rude for me to do so?—
I think the rule of thumb is this: if you want to pray for someone, that’s great. But things change when it comes to whether or not you should TELL someone that you are doing so. If you know someone is a non-beliver, then it does sort of raise eyebrows as to why you’d go out of your way to tell them that you are praying for them. Some people are going to be offended by this, some wont. Clearly, as evidenced by people’s responses on this board, tolerant people can simply interpret it as your way of wishing them good will. But the question was about people in general, and some people are going to be touchy, suspicious, and perhaps intolerant to this sort of overture, especially when they don’t know you personally.
As to praying for doctors to have wisdom and strength, I’m not sure I see how that is any different from praying for any other intervention in reality, from a tumor vanishing in a puff of smoke, to doctors gaining superhuman skills. It still requires radically altering reality, and shouldn’t be seen as being any less strange than any other miraculous alteration, IMHO.
Certainly, since you ask.
No guidelines as to how many prayers are needed, but the Lord tells a parable in Luke 18:1-8 to teach us to be persisent in prayer. It’s thread drift, so I won’t quote that one.
Regards,
Shodan
PS - You are all being prayed for on a daily basis.
I accept prayers graciously.
Back when I was infertile, a very common response to my problem was “I’ll pray for you.” I always translated this to “I hope everything works out for you.” Perhaps some of these people even took the time to send out positive thoughts to their deity regarding my plight. Doesn’t hurt.
Like Zette and others, I’m offended by “I’ll pray for your soul.” My soul is in fine shape - and praying for my soul is a little like my neighbor telling me “I’m going to replant your flower garden - I really don’t like purple coneflowers. I’ll just toss these daisy seeds in and see if they take root.”
As I read over this I just want to make it clear that I see a GREAT difference between saying “I’ll pray that you become a Christian” and saying “I’ll pray that you feel better, or your burdens are lessened.”
The way I see it…I have no direct abilities in, say, keeping a child healthy, or taking a tumor out of your stomach or making sure your plane lands safely. BUt it is my personal belief that prayer works. So by saying “I’ll be praying for you” it’s saying “even though I’m not really directly involved in what’s going on, I’m going to do my part on my end to hope things turn out well.”
And no, I would not be offended if someone read a tarot or said a spell or went to synagogue for me.
And, when I told this person I was praying for them, i didn’t know they were an athiest.
J
—And, when I told this person I was praying for them, i didn’t know they were an athiest.—
You would hope that the person in question, then, would have given you the benefit of the doubt. You were still making something of an unwarranted assumption on your part, of course, and therein lies the problem (not neccessarily your problem, but still).
Again, the issue really remains not that you would pray for them, but rather that you would tell them about it. I’m not even sure, if I was a Christian, that I’d feel right about telling other Christians that I was praying for them. It’s really a matter of personal preference. Some people are definately rude about this sort of thing, some aren’t. But in general, it’s best not to say it to a stranger, certainly someone who’s such a stranger that you don’t know their beliefs.
I guess, then, my Christian/Catholic upbringing is showing through. I’d never imagine that you’d keep well wishes for someone to yourself.
It’s almost a STANDARD issue statement in my community and/or family “my thoughts and prayers are with you”. “You’ll be in my prayers”. I say it all the time.
I don’t think that it’s the same as what dreamer may have done, in that I’m not announcing my great power of prayer and faith for all to bask in…I’m just letting someone know that I care about them, and whatever I can do to make their life easier, I’m going to do it.
And I’m careful not to use the term casually. If I say I’m going to pray for someone, it means I really am taking time out of my day to wish them well.
I never ever dreamed it could be offensive.
J