President Obama warns of progressive "purity" and "circular firing squads"

[XT]

@Kimstu

No, because I’m not actually interested in whether the Democratic “jocks” are bullying the “nerd kid” you in this analogy, or how you may wish the jocks would change to promote your nerd-kid priorities. I don’t particularly care how you feel about the Democratic Party’s positions or vice versa.

I’m just pointing out that if you sincerely want the football team to win, you should do what you can to support their efforts. Instead of merely bitching from the sidelines about how you can’t stand them, while simultaneously proclaiming how crucial it is that they win the game and how much you’ll despise them if they fail to win the game.
Well, it’s pretty arrogant for you as a loudly declared non-supporter of the Democratic Party to think you’re entitled to “demand” any particular actions from them.

You can wish that they don’t tear themselves apart, of course. But if you’re getting self-righteously up in their faces and finger-wagging at them about your “demand” that they deploy a winning strategy, then your refusal to support their efforts just makes you look like a whiny kibitzer.

As I said, the root of the problem in your argument is the double standard you’re applying. You kvetch about how certain factions of the Democrats are being too divisive and destroying party unity rather than putting aside their ideological differences to work together. But at the same time, you’re ostentatiously displaying your own ideological differences with the Democrats and angsting about how you “don’t fit in anywhere”, poor misunderstood loner that you are.

Hey, you are entirely free to have yourself an ideological-purity pity party all day long if you want, and so are the hardcore progressives and Bernie-bros and whoever. But if you then go around castigating Democrats for being too fixated on ideological purity, you just seem hypocritical. The fact that you’ve declared your willingness (along with your loudly expressed reluctance) to “hold your nose” and cast your statistically negligible vote for a Democratic candidate in a general election doesn’t really do much to mitigate that hypocrite look you’ve got going on.

So, obviously a huge disconnect. I, frankly, can’t even put this post into the context of what I said. So, help me out here (anyone else who wants to play along, feel free as well). How do you get a double standard? I’m not asking the Republicans to keep it together…hell, for all their faults, that’s one that they actually seem to be able to do. I’m not asking YOUR party to not have .a vigorous debate, either. I’m just asking that they not tear themselves apart. That doesn’t seem, to me, to be asking for ‘ideological-purity’ nor a ‘pity party’…if fucking seems, to me anyway, a reasonable request (obviously not, and I suspect this is the root of the disconnect). My ideology IS different than yours, or that of the mainstream of the Democrats, certainly to that of the progressives. So, that’s reality. I don’t fit in. I will never fit in. This isn’t because I’m a ‘poor misunderstood loner’, it’s because my political ideology is centrist and the centrists in the Democratic party are a very small, almost non-existent fraction…just like in the Republican party. Establishment liberals are the majority, with the progressives and left wing times making up the rest by and large, while on the other side it’s the Tea Party idiots, the social conservatives, right winger types and some economic and dinosaur conservatives for flavor. Joining either would be futile…I know this, for a fact, because I was in the Republican party when I was a kid and in the Democratic party when I was in my 40s, and there was no place for me then, let alone now, as there is zero chance I could sway anyone to my positions on, well, anything. Ever. I’m not asking for pity for that…it is what it is. The people I most connect with in either party are those who are able and ready to reach across the isle to work with the other party on, well, anything. And they don’t seem to be the most prized or cherished in either party, getting hit from both sides, and seem to be dwindling in numbers on both sides.

So, I’m not seeing the hypocrisy (that is a huge wtf right there), not seeing your trying to paint what I’m saying as asking for ‘ideological-purity’ or even asking for pity. To me, you seem to be running some sort of tape recorder against points not raised by me to defend some obscure position you have that I don’t get, or giving me empty platitudes that are worthless to me in the real world. Let me be clear here…I don’t give a flying fuck who your party nominates. That’s entirely up to your party. I have zero say in that, not being a Democrat. Further, I have no intention of ever being a Democrat (or a Republican), as there is no place in either party for me except on the very fringe being ignored or even bashed…fuck, I can get that right from where I am, I don’t have to join anything. I don’t give a flying fuck for your internal squabbles, for the civil war that seems to be happening between progressives and establishment liberals. Whatever…it’s your party. All I’m asking is that you guys don’t split the vote and allow Trump to get another term. It would also be nice if you guys could hold onto your gains in the House and perhaps expand on them, but at this rate I’d settle for Trump being out. This doesn’t seem unreasonable of me to ask or wish for (wish, after your posts, seems the best case to me at this point).

[DrDeth]

@Banquet_Bear

…
I have no idea what this means. But if you want to provide examples of the “progressives” not trying to get rid of Republicans, please feel free to share.

They dont run against a GOP in a purple district.

The progressives , by wasting Dem money fighting Dem vs Dem are hurting our chances of regaining the Senate and keeping the House. They are being very selfish.

[Banquet_Bear]

@DrDeth

They dont run against a GOP in a purple district.

…to characterizes this as “They rarely try to get rid of a Republican” is about as disingenuous as you can get. And I have no way of independently verifying your statement either.

The progressives , by wasting Dem money fighting Dem vs Dem are hurting our chances of regaining the Senate and keeping the House. They are being very selfish.

The progressives, by investing in a progressive future and fighting for policies that will make the world a better place, are turning the party into something more people will vote for, improving the chances of regaining the Senate and keeping the House. They are being magnanimous.

Its all about the spin.

[CarnalK]

@Banquet_Bear

…to characterizes this as “They rarely try to get rid of a Republican” is about as disingenuous as you can get. And I have no way of independently verifying your statement either.

Justice Democrats have pretty explicitly targeted safe blue districts. It’s an obvious realpolitik strategy. If they attempt to put an AOC type in a purple district she will most likely lose.
Politico article:

Justice Democrats, which orchestrated Ocasio-Cortez’s long-shot bid last year against the fourth-ranking House Democrat, Joe Crowley, hopes to replicate its success in blue districts across the country.
[…]
While its target list looks haphazard and its ideological yardstick difficult to gauge, Justice Democrats’ overarching goal has remained the same: To root out long-time pols who embody the big-tent Democratic Party and replace them with more Ocasio-Cortezes.

@Banquet Bear

The progressives, by investing in a progressive future and fighting for policies that will make the world a better place, are turning the party into something more people will vote for, improving the chances of regaining the Senate and keeping the House. They are being magnanimous.

Its all about the spin.

Your spin is obviously wrong though. Most Americans and even most Democrats are simply not even close to the progressive level of the justice Democrats.

[Banquet_Bear]

@CarnalK

Justice Democrats have pretty explicitly targeted safe blue districts. It’s an obvious realpolitik strategy. If they attempt to put an AOC type in a purple district she will most likely lose.
Politico article:

…“they rarely try to get rid of a Republican” is not a fair characterization of “targeting safe blue districts”. For a committee that was only formed in 2017 I’m not seeing the problem. If they put AOC in a purple district and she lost then she wouldn’t be in the position of doing all the good she is doing at the moment. How is AOC being the only Dem politician to come close to Donald Trump in social media reach a bad thing?

Your spin is obviously wrong though.

Except that it isn’t.

Most Americans and even most Democrats are simply not even close to the progressive level of the justice Democrats.

An unsupported assertion that is irrelevant to what I said.

[CarnalK]

@Banquet_Bear

…“they rarely try to get rid of a Republican” is not a fair characterization of “targeting safe blue districts”.

It’s fair. Their objective is to change the Dem caucus, not grow it. This is a stated aim

An unsupported assertion that is irrelevant to what I said.

It is quite obviously relevant. So obviously relevant that your denial of its relevance makes me disinclined to bother citing it for you.

[Banquet_Bear]

@CarnalK

It’s fair. Their objective is to change the Dem caucus, not grow it. This is a stated aim

…“changing the Dem caucus” is unfairly characterized as “they rarely try to get rid of a Republican.”

It is quite obviously relevant. So obviously relevant that your denial of its relevance makes me disinclined to bother citing it for you.

Still irrelevant. And I doubt you would have provided a cite anyway.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

If progressives tried to run a progressive candidate in a purple district, conservative Democrats would say, “Excellent, good job, that’s where you should be running!”

FUCK NO THEY WOULDN’T.

Over and over conservative Democrats complain about purity tests and talk about how they need to be free to be conservative, so they can win in purple districts. If a progressive tries to run in a purple district, the conservatives smack them down HARD for not being realistic and for guaranteeing a GOP win.

So progressives run in solid blue districts, and conservative Democrats STILL give them shit for it.

Progressives can’t win for losing, when it comes to what the conservatives will say about them. The only winning strategy is not to worry about conservatives Dems concern-trolling them.

[CarnalK]

@Banquet_Bear

…“changing the Dem caucus” is unfairly characterized as “they rarely try to get rid of a Republican.”

Well, it would have been more fair to describe it as “they don’t go after Republicans, only impure Dems.”
And yeah, you can continue under an apparent delusion that Justice Dems are mainstream because I’m not doing your homework for you.

[CarnalK]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

If progressives tried to run a progressive candidate in a purple district, conservative Democrats would say, “Excellent, good job, that’s where you should be running!”

FUCK NO THEY WOULDN’T.

Over and over conservative Democrats complain about purity tests and talk about how they need to be free to be conservative, so they can win in purple districts. If a progressive tries to run in a purple district, the conservatives smack them down HARD for not being realistic and for guaranteeing a GOP win.

So progressives run in solid blue districts, and conservative Democrats STILL give them shit for it.

Progressives can’t win for losing, when it comes to what the conservatives will say about them. The only winning strategy is not to worry about conservatives Dems concern-trolling them.

From the same politico article I linked above:

But if Justice Democrats follows through on going after Rep. Kathleen Rice (D-N.Y.) — one of their prospective targets — it would be for entirely different reasons. Rice is a progressive. She has voted with Trump just 28 percent of the time and cosponsored legislation to slash fossil fuel dependence. She is popular in her district. But Justice Democrats still has her in its sights.
[…]
“On paper [Crowley] was left of center of the party,” said Shahid. “It’s important to leave room for districts like that where there’s a long-time incumbent who kind of has a machine and voters want a change and it’s hard to notice that on paper, which is why it’s hard describing what our criteria are.”

Shahid confirmed that Justice Democrats is keeping a close eye on Rice’s district, taking cues from the small, grass-roots contingent and polling released by progressive activist Sean McElwee of Data for Progress

So they have a strong purity pony drive. It’s not just “conservative Democrats”. They want radicals in every blue district.

[Banquet_Bear]

@CarnalK

Well, it would have been more fair to describe it as “they don’t go after Republicans, only impure Dems.”

…so yes, it is unfair. Concession accepted.

And yeah, you can continue under an apparent delusion that Justice Dems are mainstream because I’m not doing your homework for you.

I’ve never made a claim that “Justice Dems are mainstream”. The comment you quoted was much more nuanced than that. If you are unable to parse that nuance that isn’t my fault, and it doesn’t make your comment relevant to what I said.

And I’ve never asked you to do my “homework” for me. I stated that your assertion was unsupported, then when you said that you weren’t going to provide a cite for it I told you that I didn’t think you were going to provide a cite for you anyway. So please, by all means, continue not doing what I never asked you to do.

[CarnalK]

@Banquet_Bear

…so yes, it is unfair. Concession accepted.

Huh. I thought English was your first language.

[Banquet_Bear]

@CarnalK

Huh. I thought English was your first language.

…wow.

Okay, won’t be replying to you again in this thread.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@CarnalK

From the same politico article I linked above:

So they have a strong purity pony drive. It’s not just “conservative Democrats”. They want radicals in every blue district.

So tell us: under what circumstances may progressive Democrats campaign aggressively for representation with your approval?

[CarnalK]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

So tell us: under what circumstances may progressive Democrats campaign aggressively for representation with your approval?

I think we’d both agree that my approval is meaningless. I don’t think I’ve actually mentioned any disapproval in any case. I’m merely, imho, correcting the record. A political insurgency can be rather expected to work this way. The party politics/primaries are way easier to hijack.

[MyFootsZZZ]

I’m honestly thinking that Bernie might be the one that can win against Trump, like it or not.

The reason is that the established is already trying to smear him, again, and his base is wise to it. They feel slighted, and, I believe, are less willing to vote for anyone else that might win. They are going to blame Biden and Corporate Dems.

Perhaps someone besides Biden will start to gain momentum. But as it is… and I honestly wish it wasn’t this way even though I’m a little a Bernie fan.

[MyFootsZZZ]

*I meant to say I’m a big Bernie fan. Sorry, it’s 420 and I’m celebrating.

But I wish things weren’t this contentious.

[Kimstu]

@XT

I’m not asking YOUR party to not have .a vigorous debate, either. I’m just asking that they not tear themselves apart. […]

My ideology IS different than yours, or that of the mainstream of the Democrats, certainly to that of the progressives. So, that’s reality. I don’t fit in. I will never fit in. […]

I was in the Republican party when I was a kid and in the Democratic party when I was in my 40s, and there was no place for me then, let alone now, as there is zero chance I could sway anyone to my positions on, well, anything. Ever.

I don’t give a flying fuck who your party nominates. That’s entirely up to your party. I have zero say in that, not being a Democrat. Further, I have no intention of ever being a Democrat […] I don’t give a flying fuck for your internal squabbles […] Whatever…it’s your party.

This right here is the double standard, where you (a) berate Democrats of different ideological stripes for letting their differences keep them from working together for Democratic victories. And (b) at the same time keep beating your drum about your ideological differences from the Democrats, and how because of those differences you are steadfastly determined never to work together with Democrats for Democratic victories.

Yup, hypocritical freeloading kibitzer all the way.

@XT

All I’m asking is that you guys don’t split the vote and allow Trump to get another term. It would also be nice if you guys could hold onto your gains in the House and perhaps expand on them, but at this rate I’d settle for Trump being out. This doesn’t seem unreasonable of me to ask or wish for

No? Do you really not see how arrogant it is for you to go through this long spiel about how you are completely alienated from the Democratic Party and take no interest in its decisions and don’t support its efforts in any way, and then have the nerve to talk about what you’re “asking” the Democrats to do?

What would you think of, say, a self-proclaimed non-combatant in a war who announced to one of the armies, “Hey, it’s really important for you guys to win and I hope you will be less shit at winning than you usually are, because it will be a disaster if the other army wins. However, I won’t join you or help pay for your support or do anything to help your efforts. Because I don’t align with you and don’t care what you choose to do and there’s no place for me among you and I don’t really give a shit what happens to your organization. All I’m asking is that you win this war against the other army, if you can manage to be somewhat less shit at winning, for once. That doesn’t seem unreasonable for me to ask.”

Oh well, then, sure thing, sweetie, anything for you, of course. Thanks so much for your support. :rolleyes:

[Ambivalid]

@Kimstu

This right here is the double standard, where you (a) berate Democrats of different ideological stripes for letting their differences keep them from working together for Democratic victories. And (b) at the same time keep beating your drum about your ideological differences from the Democrats, and how because of those differences you are steadfastly determined never to work together with Democrats for Democratic victories.

Yup, hypocritical freeloading kibitzer all the way.
No? Do you really not see how arrogant it is for you to go through this long spiel about how you are completely alienated from the Democratic Party and take no interest in its decisions and don’t support its efforts in any way, and then have the nerve to talk about what you’re “asking” the Democrats to do?

What would you think of, say, a self-proclaimed non-combatant in a war who announced to one of the armies, “Hey, it’s really important for you guys to win and I hope you will be less shit at winning than you usually are, because it will be a disaster if the other army wins. However, I won’t join you or help pay for your support or do anything to help your efforts. Because I don’t align with you and don’t care what you choose to do and there’s no place for me among you and I don’t really give a shit what happens to your organization. All I’m asking is that you win this war against the other army, if you can manage to be somewhat less shit at winning, for once. That doesn’t seem unreasonable for me to ask.”

Oh well, then, sure thing, sweetie, anything for you, of course. Thanks so much for your support. :rolleyes:

like

[SlackerInc]

@Kimstu

Well, it’s pretty arrogant for you as a loudly declared non-supporter of the Democratic Party to think you’re entitled to “demand” any particular actions from them.

I couldn’t agree more. Yet the left wing does EXACTLY this, constantly!! :smack: