Pro-Con: Clinton vs. Trump

[Lucky_Mike]

@Bricker

I will be voting for Clinton.

I think she’ll be terrible.

But I’m reasonably certain Trump would be worse, although in fairness he’s said so little about his detailed policy positions that perhaps he’d be awesome.

But every policy he’s hinted at has been abysmal, so I rate the chances of “awesome,” as “non-zero, but damn close.”

My respect for you has jumped two notches on this one.

I am a true swing vote, I voted for Bush 1 in 88 (good president IMHO),
Bush 1 in 92,

Clinton 96 (things were going well),

Gore in 00,

Kerry in 04 (sorry Bush 2, blow up the world boogaloo, was a complete disaster),

McCain (clinching my teeth because of his idiotic veep choice) in 2008- he is one of the last true statespersons,

And Obama in 2012 (Romney, dude, you were a freaking socially liberal governor, you embraced healthcare in MA, why did you not support health care reform… oh I know, you played to the crazies who have now elected Trump to be their candidate)

I could never, in a million years, with all the money in the world, vote for Donald Trump.

Bush 2 was bad, but all the rhetoric, even on this board, was WAY over the top. He was just an idiot, that is all.

The rhetoric on Trump is NOT off. He is actually the worst possible thing for America. He is a national embarrassment and anyone who supports him… well… I simply will never understand.

I could understand every supporter of every election for the last 28 years of my voting life. I cannot understand how any person who is not: sexist, racist, close minded or mentally challenged, could possible vote for this man.

When people say he is admired for “saying what everyone is thinking”, I shudder…

If this is true, the people who vote for him think…

…everyone thinks muslims are evil and need to be banned
…everyone thinks most of the immigrants from Mexico are criminals, only some are good people
…everyone thinks building a wall will stop illegal immigration
…everyone thinks women who get an abortion should be punished (hello Handmaid’s Tale)
…everyone thinks talking about your penis size in a presidential debate is ok
…everyone thinks women are sexual objects who are valued for their looks

Ugh… anyways, thank you Bricker for this one. Guess what man, we all lose this election, we all lose, but I will not be a person who casts a vote for a man like Trump.

I have some morals for God’s sake.

[Gyrate]

@BrainGlutton

Another con, and a blood-boiler of one: Clinton was involved in negotiating the TPP, and in keeping the negotiations secret.

Ooh, I’d forgotten about that. Add that one to my “Con” list too.

[Hector_St_Clare]

@Lucky_Mike

My respect for you has jumped two notches on this one.

I am a true swing vote, I voted for Bush 1 in 88 (good president IMHO),
Bush 1 in 92,

Clinton 96 (things were going well),

Gore in 00,

Kerry in 04 (sorry Bush 2, blow up the world boogaloo, was a complete disaster),

McCain (clinching my teeth because of his idiotic veep choice) in 2008- he is one of the last true statespersons,

And Obama in 2012 (Romney, dude, you were a freaking socially liberal governor, you embraced healthcare in MA, why did you not support health care reform… oh I know, you played to the crazies who have now elected Trump to be their candidate)

I could never, in a million years, with all the money in the world, vote for Donald Trump.

Bush 2 was bad, but all the rhetoric, even on this board, was WAY over the top. He was just an idiot, that is all.

The rhetoric on Trump is NOT off. He is actually the worst possible thing for America. He is a national embarrassment and anyone who supports him… well… I simply will never understand.

I could understand every supporter of every election for the last 28 years of my voting life. I cannot understand how any person who is not: sexist, racist, close minded or mentally challenged, could possible vote for this man.

When people say he is admired for “saying what everyone is thinking”, I shudder…

If this is true, the people who vote for him think…

…everyone thinks muslims are evil and need to be banned
…everyone thinks most of the immigrants from Mexico are criminals, only some are good people
…everyone thinks building a wall will stop illegal immigration
…everyone thinks women who get an abortion should be punished (hello Handmaid’s Tale)
…everyone thinks talking about your penis size in a presidential debate is ok
…everyone thinks women are sexual objects who are valued for their looks

Ugh… anyways, thank you Bricker for this one. Guess what man, we all lose this election, we all lose, but I will not be a person who casts a vote for a man like Trump.

I have some morals for God’s sake.

I’m the opposite, I’m on the far left (have voted for Communists in the past and would do so again if I got the chance) but Trump is the one republican that at some level actually kind of appeals to me. He’s still too free-market and pro-rich for my taste, but the things that bother you about me don’t all bother me so much, with some exceptions.

In order:

1. Muslims aren’t evil as people (not all of them), but Islam is evil, and I think Muslim immigration to the United States should probably be limited. If we lived in Europe I’d go much farther than Trump and would say not only should further Muslim immigration be stopped, we should pay existing Muslim residents, including citizens, to leave. Large sums of money if necessary. Maybe Albanians and kazakhs can be exceptions.

2. This is a malicious lie on Trump’s part, Mexicans aren’t more crime prone than white people. I don’t really mind Mexican immigration, it’s African, Asian and Muslim immigration that worry me (and open borders/mass immigration in principle). advantage Clinton on this one. (With Muslim immigration into Europe, on the other hand, crime and especially rape is a huge problem. Muslims aren’t Mexicans).

3. The Berlin Wall worked fine for stopping emigration, so in principle there’s no reason to believe a wall wouldn’t work. As I said, I think the Berlin Wall was necessary and I don’t think the Great Wall of Trump is, but in terms of working it might well work.

4. Yes, women who have abortions should be punished. Just like any other murderer would be punished. I think the punishment should be relatively light, so we don’t dissuade the small minority of people who want genuinely medically necessary ones, but in general (and with appropriate health exceptions) anyone involved with an elective abortion should suffer for it. The doctor, the mother, the boyfriend/husband/other male associate who might have encouraged, paid for or facilitated it, and so forth.

5. Umm, in certain contexts women (and men) are valued solely or primarily for their looks, in other contexts they’re not, that’s perfectly normal. If I’m hiring a woman for a job I don’t care about her looks, personality or anything else, I care about her skills, intelligence and work ethic. In terms of dating, marriage, sexual encounters, etc., looks are extremely important. Same with men.

[BrainGlutton]

@WillFarnaby

Yes it does. Loved and inspiring presidents are dangerous. They can get the masses on their side.

And that is a bad thing why?

FDR was loved and inspiring, he had the masses on his side, and he was anything but dangerous (to America).

[Fiveyearlurker]

@iiandyiiii

When you refuse to call a group by the correct name because you don’t like the group, and repeatedly use the wrong name on purpose, you’re going to get called out for it.

His entire goal in using the term was to get called out for it.

[BrainGlutton]

@Lucky_Mike

When people say he is admired for “saying what everyone is thinking”, I shudder…

If this is true, the people who vote for him think…

…everyone thinks muslims are evil and need to be banned
…everyone thinks most of the immigrants from Mexico are criminals, only some are good people
…everyone thinks building a wall will stop illegal immigration
…everyone thinks women who get an abortion should be punished (hello Handmaid’s Tale)
…everyone thinks talking about your penis size in a presidential debate is ok
…everyone thinks women are sexual objects who are valued for their looks

Well, I’m sure not all of them think all of that, but . . . pretty much, yeah. The Donald has at least performed the public service of shining light on the ugly and evil minds of a segment of the American people which the rest of us would much prefer, but cannot afford, to forget exists.

[BrainGlutton]

@Hector_St_Clare

3. The Berlin Wall worked fine for stopping emigration, so in principle there’s no reason to believe a wall wouldn’t work.

A wall anyone will care to try to cross is useless without troops to patrol it. That is much easier and cheaper on a wall stretching a few city blocks than one running thousands of miles.

[WillFarnaby]

@BrainGlutton

And that is a bad thing why?

FDR was loved and inspiring, he had the masses on his side, and he was anything but dangerous (to America).

Let’s just say we disagree.

[BrainGlutton]

@WillFarnaby

Let’s just say we disagree.

Let’s just say you’re wrong. We are not even in YMMV territory here.

[Johnny_Ace]

@Hector_St_Clare

I’m the opposite, I’m on the far left (have voted for Communists in the past and would do so again if I got the chance) but Trump is the one republican that at some level actually kind of appeals to me. He’s still too free-market and pro-rich for my taste, but the things that bother you about me don’t all bother me so much, with some exceptions.

In order:

1. Muslims aren’t evil as people (not all of them), but Islam is evil, and I think Muslim immigration to the United States should probably be limited. If we lived in Europe I’d go much farther than Trump and would say not only should further Muslim immigration be stopped, we should pay existing Muslim residents, including citizens, to leave. Large sums of money if necessary. Maybe Albanians and kazakhs can be exceptions.

Islam isn’t evil except in the ordinary mind-control way of every organized religion. The Koran isn’t the only holy book that encourages the killing of ‘infidels.’ Just a few examples, Old and New Testaments: Deuteronomy (19:21, 20:16-17…Deuteronomy’s big on killing), Numbers 31:1-3, Matthew 10:34, Romans 13:4. And that was just with a few minutes’ search. Yet, oddly enough, you don’t see mainstream Christians nor the vast majority of Muslims going out and suicide-bombing the nonbelievers. See Islamic extremism. Different thing entirely.

2. This is a malicious lie on Trump’s part, Mexicans aren’t more crime prone than white people. I don’t really mind Mexican immigration, it’s African, Asian and Muslim immigration that worry me (and open borders/mass immigration in principle). advantage Clinton on this one. (With Muslim immigration into Europe, on the other hand, crime and especially rape is a huge problem. Muslims aren’t Mexicans).

In fact, Hispanic immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than white natives. I can find the cite if necessary, it’s been put up on this board several times before.

3. The Berlin Wall worked fine for stopping emigration, so in principle there’s no reason to believe a wall wouldn’t work. As I said, I think the Berlin Wall was necessary and I don’t think the Great Wall of Trump is, but in terms of working it might well work.

One giant money sinkhole that won’t stop inventive people from circumventing it in one way or another. Will do absolutely nothing to stop the flow of illegal drugs (which, racist pandering aside, is really a bigger issue than immigration).

4. Yes, women who have abortions should be punished. Just like any other murderer would be punished. I think the punishment should be relatively light, so we don’t dissuade the small minority of people who want genuinely medically necessary ones, but in general (and with appropriate health exceptions) anyone involved with an elective abortion should suffer for it. The doctor, the mother, the boyfriend/husband/other male associate who might have encouraged, paid for or facilitated it, and so forth.

Spoken like someone who has never experienced an unwanted pregnancy. Might work in a communist country, not happening in the US. There are too many reasonable people to beat back the Bible-thumpers, and even most of them don’t agree with punishment.

5. Umm, in certain contexts women (and men) are valued solely or primarily for their looks, in other contexts they’re not, that’s perfectly normal. If I’m hiring a woman for a job I don’t care about her looks, personality or anything else, I care about her skills, intelligence and work ethic. In terms of dating, marriage, sexual encounters, etc., looks are extremely important. Same with men.

So that’s your justification for Trump claiming that a reporter kept asking him an uncomfortable question because she was menstruating? Or denigrating Cruz because his wife is better-looking than Heidi? Try again, that won’t even begin to wash.

[Chimera]

Wild Assed Prediction extremely unlikely to come true, but whatever…

Sometime before the election but after the convention, Trump announces that he never had any intention of building a wall and deporting 11 million people, he just did it to get press coverage and support early on in the southern primaries.

Then he’s assassinated by a white southern conservative christian for his betrayal.

or at least shot at.

[BrainGlutton]

@Chimera

Wild Assed Prediction extremely unlikely to come true, but whatever…

Sometime before the election but after the convention, Trump announces that he never had any intention of building a wall and deporting 11 million people, he just did it to get press coverage and support early on in the southern primaries.

Then he’s assassinated by a white southern conservative christian for his betrayal.

or at least shot at.

Do we put this in the “Pro” or “Con” column?

[DerekMichaels00]

@Johnny_Ace

Islam isn’t evil except in the ordinary mind-control way of every organized religion. The Koran isn’t the only holy book that encourages the killing of ‘infidels.’ Just a few examples, Old and New Testaments: Deuteronomy (19:21, 20:16-17…Deuteronomy’s big on killing), Numbers 31:1-3, Matthew 10:34, Romans 13:4. And that was just with a few minutes’ search. Yet, oddly enough, you don’t see mainstream Christians nor the vast majority of Muslims going out and suicide-bombing the nonbelievers. See Islamic extremism. Different thing entirely.

Ummm how many governments around the world today, in 2016, now 1116, spend billions of dollars and thousands of man-hours to stop Christian/Hindu/Jewish extremism? How often do people go around the globe to blow stuff up yelling “Vishnu/Yahweh/Jesus Akbar?” And don’t tell me “but the Iraq War because Bush” because that war wasn’t in the name and cause of spreading Christianity. The US government did not start building churches and mass spreading pro-Jesus propaganda (and yes I know there were a few isolated incidents of like two people who sought to do that but it wasn’t the mainstream of the reason we were there).

Its not whats in the holy books that matter; its what actually happens in the world today that matters.

[Johnny_Ace]

@DerekMichaels00

Ummm how many governments around the world today, in 2016, now 1116, spend billions of dollars and thousands of man-hours to stop Christian/Hindu/Jewish extremism? How often do people go around the globe to blow stuff up yelling “Vishnu/Yahweh/Jesus Akbar?” And don’t tell me “but the Iraq War because Bush” because that war wasn’t in the name and cause of spreading Christianity. The US government did not start building churches and mass spreading pro-Jesus propaganda (and yes I know there were a few isolated incidents of like two people who sought to do that but it wasn’t the mainstream of the reason we were there).

Its not whats in the holy books that matter; its what actually happens in the world today that matters.

I know of multiple, very large groups of Christian terrorists who might have been successful were it not chiefly for the efforts of a certain Salah ad-Din. So tell me, is Christianity to blame for that? Because that’s exactly the same thing you’re saying about Islam.

The perpetrators are to blame, and the people behind them who enable them and use (note that particularly important verb) Islam to turn them into jihadists. Not Islam.

I can’t believe I even have to explain this.

[Claverhouse]

@BrainGlutton

A wall anyone will care to try to cross is useless without troops to patrol it. That is much easier and cheaper on a wall stretching a few city blocks than one running thousands of miles.

That’s why Hillary’s — “I am adamantly against illegal immigrants“ — wall, 700 miles of which were built, is so much better:
“Smart Fencing”

“Technology”

“Swift Border Agents”

“Cameras”

“Regular Patrols”

“18 Foot High Cantilevered Wire Mesh”

“Blinding Yellow Night Lights”

“Seismic Sensors”

“Infra-Red Sensors”

“Satellite Surveillance”

“Drones”

“Watchtowers”
Kinda like Hi-Tech Hadrian’s Wall. Naturally the last two presidents deserve much of the praise as well.

*"… I voted numerous times when I was a senator to spend money to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in. And I do think you have to control your borders.”

[BrainGlutton]

@DerekMichaels00

Ummm how many governments around the world today, in 2016, now 1116, spend billions of dollars and thousands of man-hours to stop Christian/Hindu/Jewish extremism?

I don’t know whether the government is doing anything about it, but Hindu extremism is certainly a problem in India. Sometimes it leads to riots.

[DerekMichaels00]

@BrainGlutton

I don’t know whether the government is doing anything about it, but Hindu extremism is certainly a problem in India. Sometimes it leads to riots.

There u go; one government fighting Hindu extremism, whereas many dozens, if not over half around the world of them are fighting Islam extremism.

[DrDeth]

@boffking

Trump is an egotistical maniac and a felon.
Clinton is the embodiment of the corrupt establishment. I’ll probably vote for Jill Stein.

A vote for Jill Stein is a vote for trump.

[DrDeth]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

I find it amusing our OP is more transphobic then the presumptive Republican nominee for President.

and this “He wants to limit mass Muslim immigration” appears rather racist.

[DrDeth]

@BrainGlutton

Another con, and a blood-boiler of one: Clinton was involved in negotiating the TPP, and in keeping the negotiations secret.

TPP?