Prominent conservatives issue report rebutting Trump election claims

Rats abandoning a ship that sank two years ago.

From the report …


That’s what they really said.

Well, since Cheney gets death threats, fear is a part of it. Another is the fact that the GOP has totally lost the demographic battle and now has to cater to religious extremists, the NRA, Racists, Bigots, and all sort of horrible people.

Cheney is being voted out by her own party.

A poll from the Casper Star-Tribune shows attorney and Trump-backed candidate Harriet Hageman leading Cheney, 52 percent to 30 percent. Other candidates did not surpass 5 percent support, while 11 percent of respondents to the poll were undecided.

So if a Republican shows open opposition to the MAGA, they will vote them out and threaten with violence.

Let’s say that Mike used to have a hobby of kicking puppies. Now, Mike has decided to reform and he’s trying to convince other puppy kickers to reform as well. Is the better way to treat Mike?

A) Encouragement and praise.
B) Telling him that he’s a puppy kicker, through and through, will always be a puppy kicker, and to go back to kicking puppies even harder with all his other puppy kicking friends, for all the respect and fondness he can ever expect from the world, having done what he did.
C) Cautiously and reasonably trust him, but do verify. Eventually (if all proves out) move to a more full and honest style-A.

Now, personally, I would say A or C are probably the right answers and B is definitely the wrong answer.

But I guess that’s just IMHO.

And so timely

In the 1950’s, for a few years, they were similarly afraid of Joseph McCarthy.

Trump’s takeover of the GOP has lasted longer because, unlike McCarthy, Donald doesn’t drink, and DJT hasn’t made the Army a primary target. It’s not the case that DJT can actually get away with murder in the middle of Fifth Avenue. It more that he knows how far he can go. Consider how he never uses the ugliest word to describe African Americans, and also avoids words, to describe gays, that he grew up with.

As for the demographic battle:

Where we are lucky is that Trump is too old to consolidate power as Putin did over several decades.

This will change no minds. Anyone convinced that Trump won is immune to logic and data.

Not really the situation we’re dealing with here.

What’s happened here is some Republicans have acknowledged they did a terrible thing. And now that they’re no longer benefitting from that terrible thing, they want acknowledge it was a terrible thing so they don’t have to face the consequences of the terrible thing they did. They want to pretend the terrible thing they did never happened (except they want to keep the benefits) and go back to the time before they did the terrible thing so they can continue to do slightly less terrible things in the future.

The appropriate response to what the Republicans have done, are doing, and plan on doing more of is to not vote for Republicans.

He’s also too lazy and too stupid.

Trump didn’t take over the GOP. The Republicans saw Trump as a useful tool, which is also how they saw McCarthy. McCarthy stopped being useful and the Republican party dropped him and moved on. They are now doing the same to Trump.

We should stop looking at people like McCarthy and Trump and look at the party that uses people like McCarthy and Trump. Because right now, the Republicans are looking for their next demagogue.

This is a very frustrating thread to read. As someone who was recently a Republican, and someone who is genuinely in the middle ground-- the kind of voter who determines free and fair elections that are anywhere near purple, I have to say you are all reading this wrong.

The authors are giving their bona fides- they are saying: "We did not run at the first sign of trouble, we did not swing to left in one cycle only to swing back right now. The reason they want it on record that they are all still Republicans is so that others who are institutionally Republican but pretty fed-up with Trump and his cronies can see that serious people looked at every detail of every claim made by Trump and his lawyers/supporters – and without exception they are complete bullshit.

They are saying- if we could substantiate the claims we would, we ARE on your side. But the claims are bogus, nonsense, wishful thinking. We looked, we looked with a very sympathetic eye, a very sympathetic ear, and we have to report the truth – there is truly nothing there. We LOST the election- pure and simple, it was not stolen — that was never true.

Now they are never going to reach those clowns that Jordan Klepper interviews. Those people are beyond reason, they boo Trump himself, they are uninformed and childish piles of resentment and emotion who have learned how to blame Democrats (or actually Socialists!!) for everything while they drink themselves into oblivion. But there are some educated and not entirely stupid people who are not going to leave the party – and they sure as hell are not going to ever vote for, or join the Democratic Party. But they are not happy with how things went and how things are going-- and they know it can’t be ENTIRELY the fault of the left.

You insist that every thinking person from the right has already left the Republican Party but that is not true. They are only hearing the Tucker Carlson version of the right. Give many of those thinking right leaning devoted republicans a different narrative – just a different possible narrative and they will jump to it because it is the only place they can go. They halfway believe FOX News but deep down know it is too extreme – and they can’t go Democrat. Give them a semblance of sanity between the two extremes and that moves needles. (Everyone on the right – but also many on the left, have forgotten it does not have to be all or nothing. Let them keep their leanings but not include fealty to Trump – and that is appealing. It is appealing as long as it isn’t a bunch of soulless Socialist Democrats who are trying to convince you. That is why it matters that the authors remained Republican.

And thank you all for reminding me that the only thing as frustrating and devoid of merit as a group of Republicans insisting they know what ALL Democrats are like (Socialist, Elitist, Welfare State Loving, Etc.) is a group of progressives insisting there are no true conservatives and all Republicans are without wisdom or knowledge or information or morals or truthful or . . . .

Must you really bash even well meaning Republicans who are trying to do the right thing by convincing their fellows the election was truly not stolen? Do WE have to sink to their level? Is it completely unavoidable???

Back when I was a somewhat sincere believer, and a committed conservative Republican, I used to listen to this Jesus rocker who had some pretty cool songs. One of them contained this lyric which I haven’t thought about for quite some time (until I read through this thread):
“Sometimes I think we’ve come so far – But then I look at where we are”

The reason so many suburbans are swinging back to the GOP is because you really aren’t any different than ‘they’ are in many ways. You are SURE that your narrative is the only good and moral and right one, you are sure the other party is an enemy that must be destroyed, your rhetoric is often insulting and unkind.

If you can understand why I am saying to you: “We are supposed to be the good guys, can’t we do better than we are doing?” “Can’t we do better than than those people?” Then perhaps you can understand that there are a few sane Republicans left and they want their fellow Republicans to see the light and revert to a sane opposition party and give up the damn stolen election trope.

If you feel personally attacked, I am sorry you are hurt, but I do not apologize. This place is supposed to be about fighting ignorance and finding truth. If you want to have me punished or banned – go for it. If you want to burn me at the stake- give it a try. But if you want a better world, try being a little less judgmental and a little more compassionate, a little more tolerant of those who disagree with you.

Why are these supposedly reasonable and intelligent people trying to persuade a constituency that is obviously irrational to the point of outright delusion that they are “on their side”, and that they strove to examine these obviously delusional claims in a “very sympathetic” way?

The irrational constituency are just going to hate them and write them off for supposedly being “traitors” and “Deep State” and who knows what all.

The rest of us are going to continue feeling, quite reasonably, that these guys ain’t quite right if they are still so desperately committed to trying to teach that pig to sing.

I totally support you in not approving of “bashing” well meaning and reasonable people. But I don’t think it’s “bashing” to sincerely wonder what they sincerely expect to accomplish by this.

(And yes, well meaning and reasonable people are not exempt from criticism about not having behaved like well meaning and reasonable people in the past. Any supposedly knowledgeable, honest political/legal professional who hasn’t been criticizing and repudiating Trump ever since 2016 is going to get some serious side-eye from me if they’re expecting praise just for criticizing and repudiating Trump now. That’s not about (formerly) mainstream Republican or conservative positions. That’s about Trump.)

Do you honestly see no difference between the “goodness and morality and rightness” of a narrative that is basically willing to accept facts, even uncomfortable facts, and a narrative that has retreated into outright self-soothing fantasy and paranoia?

No, I don’t by any means think that current Democratic/liberal positions are the ONLY possible “good and moral and right” ones. Nor do I even think that ALL current Democratic/liberal positions are good or moral or right. We could probably have quite a pleasant discussion of some current Democratic/liberal positions that we both disapprove of.

But do I think that current Democratic/liberal positions are significantly MORE good and moral and right, in the aggregate, than current Republican/conservative ones? Well, sure I do, because we’re not the ones believing self-evidently nonsensical bullshit about stolen elections and endless lies from Trump and ridiculous claims that equal rights for gay people is sexual abuse of schoolchildren.

You can’t really “bothsides” that level of outright dissociation from reality.

There’s no need to apologise to me.

But the guys you are singing an apology for conducted an armed insurrection which is failed and hence is better called a mutiny and considering the circumstances, the guys who won have been very polite, verily compassionate about it.

Now you ain’t Satan, as Toby would say: “you’re the guy that runs into the 7-11 to get Satan a pack of cigarettes”.

All the devil asks is acquiescence; not conflict, not struggle. Acquiescence.

If they want to go back to “sane” Republicanism, what is that? Newt Gingrich? The Tea Party? The creature known to man as Ted Cruz?

The election was clearly and obviously not stolen. There should be no convincing necessary. But thanks to Republicans, other Republicans believe in bullshit. If this effort was made two years ago, it may have meant something.

Let’s say Mike used to have a habit of kicking puppies, and also demonizing minorities and gays, and also cozying up to white supremacists, and also putting women’s life in danger with draconian abortion laws, and also dead set on opposing anything to combat climate change. Now, after two years of puppy kicking, he has stopped kicking puppies because it’s bad for the brand, but he still sympathizes with the puppy-kickers and says they are fine, patriotic people.

Just how hard should Democrats praise and extol Mike?

This is the part that bothers me. You’re describing much of my family. I know these people. And the reason fhey are “sure as hell” never going to vote for the Democratic candidate, even if it means voting for Satan, is they have this reflexive, tribal contempt for “Democrats”. Democrats are like sub-human. Forgive me for struggling to be sympathetic to the argument that “look, these people will never be able to see you or your views as anything but monsterous, and it has nothing to do with the spevific views in question: its just they were raised to always hold you in contempt, and that will never change. You need to accept that, and work to help them change while embracing the fact that they will always reject an honest discussion on the issues”.

Let’s say Mike and his friends in the Party of Mike have spent the past 20-30 years talking about vicious puppies and the health dangers of puppy waste and how puppies are destroying the country and how God Almighty himself hates puppies and how, oh my God, if the puppy lovers win this election the puppies will come to your house and rip your wife and kids into tiny bloody pieces then burn down your house and no one will come to help you.

Then, despite their best effort, the Party of Puppy Lovers wins the election, causing all the people that the Party of Mike has riled up to rampage, causing mass casualties among puppy lovers and puppy haters alike.

Then Mike come out and says “I think the the puppy lovers won fair and square, so that means you need to let them have their way with you because that’s how Democracy works.”

I don’t really see this as a robust defense of democracy, it’s kind of the opposite.

@Temporary_Name I’ll admit was a little surprised to see you playing the both sides card, because I consider you to be one of the best informed people on this board when it comes to Seven Mountain Dominionism and the long game the conservatives are playing in order to turn the country into a Christian theocracy.

I thought that report, while somewhat well-intended, reflected the cluelessness of some well-educated uber-privileged white men who found themselves disenfranchised by the unintended consequences of their own actions, those unintended consequences being that in order for their plan to succeed, they first had to make a large portion of the population really stupid, which was the whole point of rejecting critical thinking and discourse in favor of god-bothering and thought-limiting rhetoric, of building up a fantasy of a faith and family utopia, a world where faith is better than science, prayer better than vaccines, then convincing people that it would all come true if not for puppies and democracy.

And now they are scratching their heads wondering why the hordes of people they brainwashed are out of their control?

And out of all the Republican elected officials in the country, all the conservative judges and scholars and pundits and ex-politicians, thousands and thousands of them, they could only get six people to sign onto this paper?

There is a great mass in the middle that hasn’t made up their minds yet. Those are the ones that this is meant to persuade. Whether or not it will is a valid question, but that it won’t change the mind of a true believer isn’t a fatal flaw.

Yes, but if they are going to vote for Republicans no matter what, then persuading them to vote for the slightly less terrible Republicans is a step in the right direction.

So, just who are these “prominent Republicans”? Who’s the most prominent of them? Are any of them current office-holders? Or is this just the “RINOs” who got kicked out of what they thought was their own party, so now they’re kicking back?