Also in all seriousness, some of us remember the party before the conservatives took it over and got rid of any non-evil Republicans.
My beef is mostly that if they’d intended to persuade anyone, they’d have written persuasively. Instead they delivered something that sounded like a deposition; a measured attempt to set their own names on the right side of a story yet to be written.
You’d think “The whole Congress was almost murdered over a blatant lie by the leadership of our very own political party” would elicit a bit more … energy … from these folks. But no, it did not.
Perhaps we could poll the signees as to whether the blood of 6 Jan 2021 washed off?
I know there are a number of (R) who do not support trump. But if you voted for trump in 2020- you are either a bigot or support bigotry. You had to know how bad he was.
Yes. But! Any Senators there? Representatives? Governors? This would be like some privates, non-coms and low ranking Wehrmacht officers surrendering and sure that is nice, but the SS, Hitler and the whole government isn’t.
In the wake of 6th January, you (and they) have the effrontery to write that?
Merkins don’t get dat irony thing. Or humbuggery or hypocrisy it seems, even when served up with a soup label.
Well, there are two congressional Republicans interested in getting to the bottom of Jan 6th.
Naturally, the rest of the Republicans are trying to run those two out on a rail, because they “love the country” or some other such bullshit.
This doesn’t make sense. The analogy would be saying that all Americans are Republicans. What people are saying here is that all Republicans are Republicans, and Republicans as a group have done awful things in the last few years, such as tried to overthrow the government, voted for Trump, promoted the big election lie, etc.
No one has to stay a Republican, as opposed to Nazis (which was a much harder party to leave…). At some point a patriotic American should say, enough is enough, the Republicans are irredeemable. I will vote for the Democrats until the Republicans find their way again.
I see an incalculable distance between these things:
- Coming to accept, and to terms with, the fact that Trump and his cabal were evil and traitorous
- Catching your breath
- Truly letting go of the endless, vile, bilious shit that you heard, ad infinitum, about the awful Democrats – enough to even consider voting for them
It’s like the worst kind of divorce and custody battle where one spouse/parent utterly cannot stop bad-mouthing the other, and poisoning the kids against that parent. The harm it does can be profound and irreparable.
I – like many of us, I’d imagine – would be perfectly happy getting some non-trivial percent of the MAGA supporters to just stay home.
[NB: My hypothetical happiness would be contingent upon the current crop not putting legislative and electoral Manchurian Candidates into critical posts in swing states]
Okay, people have made some good points which deserve a response so [hopefully] THIS will be my last word on the matter. My whole point all along was that not all Republicans are the same and these guys deserve to be heard at the very least. They are saying the very same thing most of us are saying – but we must resist and insult them because they belong to a different tribe??? This is not the live and let live progressive community I was expecting (hoping?) for.
Let’s start here:
This is a fair point, but what might sound pretty meek to us is likely to be seen by rank and file Republicans as pretty damn harsh. Maybe like cursing your own parents from their view.
In addition, they are all lawyers and presumably also rich and powerful; I see them as a version of the fictional character Richard Gilmore from Gilmore Girls good hearted but so removed from a typical blue collar work-a-day life that they sound rather pompous and officious by nature. In fact, they are specifically trying to debunk a loud, powerful speaker in Trump- perhaps they think a bit of calm decorum is in order? That is how I read it (once the subject was brought up- It didn’t occur to me on my own).
Yes, many Republicans have their heads up their asses, I am related to quite a few of them. Others only have their heads in the sand, a few know the party is full of shit currently- but more about them below.
My point is since we have a few, a few highly educated and somewhat revered by other Republicans singing our tune, why don’t we support these few rather than paint them with the same brush as the other less reasonable ones. Please remember that these guys have been resisting the Trump MAGA crowd since before the 2016 election. (Great anecdote I wish to relate here but there is a post below that more directly addresses it.)
You may be right about them having limited influence, and I think that there are WAY more than two types of Republicans. But their influence may grow, and also they may influence others who can and do hold sway with the rank and file voters of the GOP.
In his autobiography, Chuck Yeager told the story of his father being so Republican that he refused to shake the hand of the Democratic President who had just awarded the Collier Trophy to his son. You are correct, there are some who can never be reached. However the Party itself has changed, and quite a bit.
Arguably the number one issue for for many Republicans (and all Evangelical Christians) is anti-abortion issues; abortion is murder and all that. In the 1970’s, the early 1970’s and before then, abortion was ONLY a Catholic issue and many Protestant churches published articles supporting Row V. Wade. They believed it was immoral to force a rape victim or underage girl to deliver a baby conceived under such circumstances. Many prominent Republicans were not what we now call pro-life. Look it up, read Katherine Stewart and Sarah Posner, and Kristin Kobes DuMez. Not until a man named Paul Weyrich became influential was abortion a key platform of the Republican Party. He is also famously responsible for voter suppression attitudes in the Republican Party. (Fuck!! Now I will have to link his famous speech! This is one of a few very powerful Republicans who dragged the Christian Church into the Republican party using the Southern Strategy. In my estimation, he is as slimy as Karl Rove.) He is more to blame for Trumpism than Trump is
Weyrich is a slimy SOB who has caused our nation great harm – and from long before Donald J. Trump was even a registered Republican. Please understand- I am not standing up to support Republicans. I am standing up to support decent and honest men and women – and to condemn shitheads like the most corrupt politician (in my view) Mitch McConnell (and Most ELECTED Republicans- more about them below).
I divide non-elected Republicans (ordinary voters) in roughly this manner-- with the full knowledge that every person is an individual with different specific experiences and who may have arrived at the same decision for different reasons:
About half of remaining registered Republicans are mindless MAGA’s who like to wear stupid message shirts, and fly Trump flags, and swamp each others boats, and run campaign busses off the road. I would never say it out loud, but I think of them as the ones with their heads up their asses. They will change their minds only when Tucker Carlson AND Sean Hannity tell them to- they don’t even listen to Donald Trump any more (just use his name to stir up enthusiasm).
Another quarter have their heads in the sand, they are low information and determined to stay that way. At the very most they get their information (the same Tucker Carlson version- but in e-mails and texts and tweets from trusted, like minded Christian Republicans (a description that is not only an oxymoron, but also an insult to any sincere member of either group whom is not devoted to this overlapping bullshit). There are decent Republicans, and there are decent Christians (and I no longer belong to either group and actually work against both of their messages nearly constantly)- but in my experience there is genuinely no such thing as a sincere Christian who is also a sincere Republican- they are sort of mutually exclusive.
There are about fifteen percent (15%) who are sort of disinterested, cultural Republicans. Every now and then they get stirred up by a candidate, or an issue but mostly they only vote once every four years and have no knowledge or interest in who their mayor or representative is and couldn’t tell you their congressional district AND their legislative district (they may know one or the other but never both) with a gun to their head. Aside from big name races like President, Vice President, and the occasional Senatorial candidate- they are clueless. Some of them may be interchangeable with or at least very similar to the first group but not as Rah! Rah! The thing is, they can be changed. Influenced, drawn across the spectrum under the right circumstance. They never have a dog in the fight- but sometimes, about once every four years they pay attention. They have long time leanings - - - but can be moved if the situation is personal for them.
The last ten percent might be the most truly Republican (at least the way I remember how the party used to be) of the lot. The story of my buddy Ernie:
I used to go to church at a fairly large and prosperous church. Eventually Ernie and I ended up working on projects together, we would set-up tables and chairs for banquets, or be parking attendants for big events, that kind of thing. He came from a large and extended family and there was hardly any sub-group within the church that did not include a close relative of his. After I was there for a year or two, the senior pastor came under scrutiny and there was very little doubt he was guilty of something. Later it turned out at a minimum he broke up a family, then divorced his own wife to marry the other guy’s wife. There may have been money inappropriately spent or pilfered. he was an immoral guy who yielded a great deal of power in our congregation-- and even in the larger district. He brought in a lot of bodies and a lot of money and if you didn’t know him personally, if you only knew him from what he said from the pulpit on Sunday mornings he seemed like a hell of a guy.
But this pastor was hard to take down. No matter what scandal he became embroiled in, he managed to create plausible deniability. (Remind you of any former Presidents we know of?) So I asked Ernie (remember Ernie? Its a story about Ernie [honest to the non existent God- this is getting as long as Alice’s Restaurant]). So I ask Ernie why he stays with this church, why doesn’t his family leave for a better church. I have forgotten to mention that during one of the scandals, Ernie’s father was accused of wrong doing (which was eventually proven to be done by the slimy pastor). Ernie gave a long sigh and looked to see if I was just being nosy, or if a sincere friend was asking a sincere question. Then he told me: “This guy is awful- you and I both know that. But my family has been coming to this church since we first arrived in this country several generations ago. We are not going to let some impostor run us off- we are not leaving our home [church] because of one bad actor. We were here before he got here, and we will be after he is gone.”
There have been few conversations I have had in my entire life that made me admire the speaker more. He and his kept a long view and suffered insults and slander because they knew that time was on their side.
Those last ten percent of Republicans did not fall for Trump, for the mess he created. They endured it, and they want to be there to put things back together if their fellows ever manage to get their heads out of their asses. As I have mentioned almost constantly, these guys who wrote the paper-- who first did the research, then wrote the paper have been opposing the crazies since before Trump was a candidate. And They ARE devout Republicans. Ginsberg argued the case before the Supreme Court that awarded the Presidency to Bush and eliminated Gore. Luttig clerked for Scalia and before that was friends with Chief Justice Warren Burger. The others I do not know as much detail about, but I believe it is reasonable to extrapolate that they also detest Trump and those policies and people he dragged into the party – but are not going to leave the party.
Those are just my opinions and the groups have overlap and blurry boundaries even if I am 100% correct. And I am armpit deep in registered Republicans all day every day, I even remained a registered republican (although I NEVER voted for Trump, even in 2016) until – well January 6th was the day that determined my future was going in a different direction no matter what. But I was even more angry and depressed when the Senate refused to convict that low-life c**cks^^ker Trump. I went on line that very day and changed my affiliation, even though I had been attending Democratic functions and voting for Democratic candidates and initiatives for years.
Hey, I remembered when Barry Goldwater (or as we knew him here in AZ: Au- H2O- get it?) wanted to use tactical nukes in Vietnam (which we called Viet Nam back then). So when exactly were the crazies not running the Republican Party.
But you are trying to make a serious point; the Republican Party has become something other than a respectable opposition party. I do agree with you, but that does not mean every single Republican has to be evil just because the organization as a whole is. Some people, most people are more complex than their party affiliation. Not all Shriners are good and decent supporters of kids with birth defects, many rank and file firefighters are known to be arsonists. People can be more than one thing at the same time. Babe Ruth was a professional athlete most of his life, but he was mostly a fat guy who smoked and drank all day everyday. Not every African American likes rap music, not every Latino is an expert as Salsa Dancing, not every Ted Nuggent fan is – okay, bad example.
I agree there are many Republicans (especially elected ones like Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz) who should be crying “Out damn spot!” at the lavabo, but not these guys.
This particular group are more like if the entire Judge Advocate General Corp resigned or did something en masse like that. There are only two former elected officials, but all the signers are well versed on legal and procedural matters, some of them are the most elite in the entire Republican Party. We know for a fact at least some of them did not even support Trump in 2016 when he was less well known. None of them supported him since then and now they are taking the extraordinary step of condemning Trump and all his acolytes in a very public and unambiguous way. I can assure you that no one in the Trump camp feels the language they used was too soft or left any room at all for doubt.
I see your point and I agree with it. (I will remind you that I am one of the few Republicans who NEVER voted for Trump. But there might be a few single issue voters who voted for Trump ONLY because of Immigration. I know a large contingency of Christians are reported to have only voted for him because of judge and justice appointments (I had a very long debate with one of them on this very board). I know a number of registered Republicans that voted for Biden or din’t vote at all. Remaining in the party is not a proof of anyone’s intent. And actually, I know a few who are too stupid to know that they are bigoted assholes as well. They are not all the same. They. Are. Not. All. The. Same.
Personally I don’t think there was ever a good reason to vote for Trump – I knew what he was within two seconds of him announcing. The closest to an honest reason to vote for him, in my opinion would be those people who believe politics do not matter at all and nothing done in DC affect them as individuals in any way (or those who think politics is all fixed like professional wrestling) who voted for Trump because he says crazy shit and amuses them.
I do have the ability to grasp irony, I will not claim that I have never been wrong in the past-- but this is not an ironic statement. What I find ironic, are so called progressives who champion everyone being treated as an individual, and everyone having the freedom to self identify, and are supposed to be the open and accepting sect of American politics – those people assuming that absolutely every single member of a group MUST have all the same traits as the worst of that group.
That is the kind of thinking that led to beliefs like: all homosexuals are perverts who victimize children. All blacks are inferior to whites because they are somehow ‘less evolved’. Etc., etc., etc., everyone is more than any group they belong to. In fact looking back, it seems to me that McCarthyism was very guilty of saying that any one who was a communist wanted to overthrow the US government by violent means. I have never been a communist myself- but I can allow for the possibility that some people just like the idea of a fair and just society where wealth as well as responsibility is equally shared by the entire society. (In fact most families work that way-- do you know any families that make their capitalist children pay for food or lodging or clean clothes??)
I will repeat for your benefit- many Republicans did horrible things on January 6th. Many ELECTED Republicans did even worse things organizing January 6th. None of them should be let off the hook for their actions. All I have ever said is that the people who researched and wrote this report are more like us than like them DESPITE being Republicans – so please, lets not lynch them along with the truly guilty parties.
And just for you penultima_thule I am going to break my own rule for myself and allow some snark. Without any evil or violent intent allow me to point out this irony:
Go buy a new holster because you have just been shot with your own gun. (In other words, the hypocrisy does not come from me but from those who paint all “others” with too broad a brush. I didn’t miss the irony – YOU did. But that is okay, we are all trying to find the truth in every situation, no harm that you missed the point-- I have certainly done it [just not here].)
I think we are close to full agreement here. I would say there more than two (the two on the house side plus at least Romney, maybe others in the senate. But overall, elected republicans on the national level are cowardly hypocrites to say the very least about them. They know the truth as well as Cheney and Kinzinger, yet they hide from and even promote the lie that should be to their eternal shame. No respect for them at all. I believe completely and without reservation that McConnell, Cruz, Graham, McCarthy, Scalise, Stefanik, and the even more reprehensible Hawley, Gaetz, Bobert, Greene, formerly Cawthorn, etc. are a stain upon American history and deserving of nothing less than treason charges.
All I have ever been trying to communicate (in this thread anyway) is that the people who wrote the report, signed, and published it are not the same as those clowns I mentioned above and not even in the category of legislators who say nothing either way hoping to avoid the issue. The authors of the article are guilty of nothing, they have opposed Trump and his wing of the party since before the 2016 election and at least one of them is on the record doing so. They are far more like “us” than they are like them. Please just read their report without a built-in bias against them-- then agree or disagree as you please. But if you go in with the idea that “They are Republicans so they must be evil” it is the same as them saying all Democrats are grooming, cannibal, pedophiles.
I can assure you that the authors of the report want to get to the bottom of January 6th also. And they want it because they KNOW there is no going forward with a party full of dip-shits like the Proud Boys, and Oath Keepers, and Three Percenters, and Trumpists, and alt-right groups. They want the idiots out of their party even more than WE want the idiots out of their party. And they are doing the work to get that goal accomplished.
I will grant you that this is not a great example, but I think a logical thought can be extrapolated easily enough. My point was supposed to be that not all members of ANY group hold the most extreme views of the worst people in that group. (Comparing republicans to NAZI’s comes pretty naturally to me however so I went for an easy comparison rather than try to think up the most accurate one.)
My big point is that someone can remain a Republican and still have good (if somewhat misguided) moral fiber. Please see my story about Ernie above for more clarity on this contention. I also think someone can remain a Republican and vote for primarily Democratic candidates. I know that is what I did, others I know of did the same to some degree also.
But let me ask you this (making some assumptions here: you are male and carry a family name) - - -
If your brother was convicted of a heinous crime, would you change your sir name? What if a bunch of your cousins (same name) were found to be awful in some way – a whole branch of the family tree, would you change your name then? I could go on and on, but I believe it is easy to see that leaving a group that has been identifying for you in the past is maybe not your first thought when the first or even the second thing happens. Eventually you have to consider leaving the group. But some stubborn individuals who maybe have some investment in the group may choose to stay with the group and nurse it back to health. I am not suggesting that you should make the same decision they have made yourself. I am saying- is it possible for you to see how others may make that choice and work to rid the group of the stink it has fallen into and rolled around in.
So please rather than ripping me for my poorly phrased metaphor, please look and see that the concept itself does have merit.
Lastly:
First, there is nothing that says a registered Republican can’t vote entirely for Democratic candidates. But I wouldn’t expect that to be the case on a wide scale (at least not after Jan. 6th when the very last of us left), I would be just as happy if they just didn’t vote at all. If this paper never changes a single vote - - but it does discourage ten percent of fed-up Republicans to not bother to vote, that my friend is a very good paper. I can see some throwing their hands in the air and saying- Eff it, I am just not going to bother.
If it DOES change just five percent of voters from [R] to [D], you get that same ten percent change. (Because you take five away from one group plus add five to the other group - those votes count twice.)
Okay, VERY LAST word:
It took me twelve years give or take to make the entire journey from hard-core ruby red Republican to the bluish purple I have become (with a brief trip into full blue before swinging back to my not just for the sake of being reactionary swing to the left). But as stated above, if a bunch of Republicans and right leaning independents just sit out the next two election cycles – really good things could happen as a result
I think I have said plenty on this topic, I would really like to let it go. Of course, if I am wrong please let me know. If I have been unclear, I apologize because I have never been a very clear communicator (which I sometimes make up for by being overly verbose diluting clarity even further)- I will try to clarify if I missed some important supposition or took things for granted where connection is required. Thank you all for your attention.
You know, had … “Every member of this informal group has worked in Republican politics, been appointed to office by Republicans, or is otherwise associated with the Party.” … produced this report in say last November/December when all the cases they cite were concluded and on the public record … and the argument presented was “all claims that the Election Was Stolen have no foundation in fact or law and we, the sincere and patriotic members of the GOP, need to accept and get over the thing before events get out of hand” it might have done some good.
To make the same argument six months after events got out of hand then there is an ancient English proverb about horses and doors which is poignant.
I assume you can get the gist.
And from this point on you can vote for whomever you like, and if you can’t stomach any candidate on your ballot to either deface it or simply not show up at all is a valid exercise of the democratic process.
But if you cast your vote in the future for a candidate who continues to espouse The Election Was Stolen(patent applied for) or that Jan 6th was just “sincere and patriotic members of the GOP” making a political statement then you really aren’t on the side of the angels.
How about two months BEFORE the previous election?? From the Wikipedia page of one of the authors. If you would read the entirety of my posts I would not need to repeat myself.
In September 2020, The Washington Post published an op-ed by Ginsberg that criticized President Donald Trump for encouraging supporters to commit voter fraud and for making false statements claiming fraud was widespread when it is not.[13] Ginsberg wrote, “The truth is that after decades of looking for illegal voting, there’s no proof of widespread fraud. At most, there are isolated incidents — by both Democrats and Republicans. Elections are not rigged. Absentee ballots use the same process as mail-in ballots — different states use different labels for the same process.”[14]
You sir need to pay closer attention. I have mentioned at least three times in this thread that I never voted for Trump, even in 2016 when so many others fell for his shit. What is more, I don’t need your permission to do anything at all or vote any way I please. You are woefully under informed and your lecture on securing the door after it is too late has no place in this context. Perhaps you will understand the linked quote since it is addressed specifically to you.
You clearly do not know what you are talking about. Before you post anything else, and especially before you comment on anything I have to say, I highly recommend that you read the entire thread from top to bottom. You are missing a lot of the details and even some very well documented matters that are not trivial.
We welcome our hall monitor overlords.
The volume is exemplary but doesn’t alter the fact you are backing the wrong horse.
That’s just it, though. Your party affiliation should be like the loosest affiliation, unless you’re an actual Republican or Democratic operative or politician. I spend a lot more time getting enjoyment out of the sports franchises that I’m a fan of than I do from any political party. I’m a stronger Islanders fan than a Democrat, in other words.
I’m certainly much more closely affiliated with my family and family name than I am with any political party. I mean, it’s not even close. I’m not a religious person, but if I were, I’m sure I’d find it much, much harder to leave my church than a political party.
I’m a member of my family, a citizen of my country, a member of my community, an employee of my company, …, an Islanders fan, …, a Mets fan, …, …, …, and I happen to be a registered Democrat so I can vote in the primaries.
I mean, seriously, why should I care if I’m a Democrat or Republican (other than it lets me vote in certain primaries)? The party certainly doesn’t care about me. I never hang out with friends to discuss who will the Democrats pick up next year in the draft. I don’t root for the Democrats because I’m on their team – I vote for them because the Republicans have shown themselves unable to govern and to be an extremist, authoritarian party. That’s the party itself, and nearly all of their elected officials. I’m sure there are plenty of good Republicans sticking around due to inertia, just like Kentucky had more registered Dems than Reps until recently, even though it’s an extremely red state.
Okay you make some good points here.
If I am understanding you, you say there are things that would be hard to step away from but that party affiliation is the very least of them. I totally believe you and that is a fair and reasonable point. You also point out that most elected Republicans are useless, hypocritical authoritarians and I fully agree with that! (I did take some liberties with how you phrased that- the snark and utter contempt is purely mine, you were very proper in your description.)
I will just ask you to consider, can you imagine that there are some people who care more about their government and party affiliation than they care about the Mets? I agree that the current Republican Party is unworthy of loyalty – I finally left (and frankly couldn’t bring myself to register as a Democrat, I am now unaffiliated). I knew I was going to leave on January 6, 2021 - but I didn’t change my registration until after the second impeachment trial and after the senate Republicans failed in their obvious patriotic duty. So I was among the very last to give up on them. Some still haven’t, if you have not read the story of my buddy Ernie above I ask you to please do so at this time.
You don’t abandon the Mets when they have a losing season and many lifelong Republicans are refusing to give up on their party even though they KNOW they are failing right now. For many non-elected, non-operative voters it is just cultural. I made a different choice, but I can understand why some of them have not. For the Authors of the paper it is different. They have worked for the party since graduating (and maybe for some of them, before that). They have known the leaders and worked alongside them since long before Trump, maybe as far back as the Reagan administration.
Can you see how guys like that might want to stay in the party, kick out the outlaw clown posse that has them in a death grip now, and restore their party to glory?
Up thread I gave my estimations about rank and file Republican voters, now I will say this in addition. For the authors of the paper (not just a few republican signers- they did the research, wrote the paper, and then published it for all the world to see). They are not only lifelong Republicans, they are also students (and teachers) of the highest levels of American jurisprudence. They are American Law scholars who hate injustice and criminality. They are also – how did you phrase it? “…Operative or politician…”. Well these guys are not quite either, but they ARE institutionally Republican. They have worked for Republican causes their entire lives, both in the sense of striving to advance the causes of Republicans-- and the sense of being employed exclusively by Republicans.
Frankly, I do not know why i am trying to defend and justify staying with the party (I didn’t). But I do want everyone to realize that these guys are saying exactly what we are saying doing everything they can to eliminate the big lie and get their party back to the business of governing.
One thing I particularly admired was when they said (in essence): quite worrying about the 2020 election- look forward and try to promote policies and practices that will benefit the entire American public and you will win elections without having to cheat. I just want us (I almost typed ‘you’ as in all progressives) I just want “US” to hear them in a fair and unbiased way because I want them to hear us in a fair and unbalanced way.
Fair warning, diatribe coming:
We undoubtedly have the high moral ground on Gun Control, we hold the moral ground on Life/Choice issues (as long as we don’t take it too far), we have an image problem with immigration, but again a better policy than they have. We certainly have a more reasonable and workable climate change and energy policy. I could go on, but you get the point. If we will listen to them and admit when they are right (sure it is only occasionally and mostly by accident), perhaps they will be fair and honest and listen to us. Right now our own senators are not listening to us (thank you Mr. Manchin), but being the same as they are and denying when they are making sense will not benefit us in the long run. [end diatribe]
I just have a hard time understanding loyalty to a party, probably because we were never loyal to any party in my family. Your analogy is off about the Mets, though. I could see staying a Republican after they lose an election (or to the Democrats after a “shellacking”), but I think a better analogy is, would I remain a Mets fan after they were caught cheating or even trying to destroy the sport of baseball?
It would be tough for me to stay an Astros fan (if I were one) after their cheating ways, for example. But, if the Mets tried to, say, sue the MLB out of existence because of how often they lost, I would drop them as a team that I care about – in that hypothetical, they literally tried to destroy baseball, a sport I hypothetically love!
I’m sure the people who wrote the paper are institutional Republicans, but the vast, vast, vast majority of Republican voters are just loyal to a tribe. The leaders of that tribe have lost their moral high ground and good, patriotic Americans should no longer call themselves Republicans.
I have sort of overtaken this thread and if not derailed it, at least put it on a siding rather than the main tracks. I do apologize because a better, more succinct communicator could have done everything I have attempted to do with many fewer words.
I do not apologize for making what I believe to be not only good, but fair points. Neither do I apologize for being passionate about this. I want us, the progressives to “win” this decade and to do so by living up to our own highest standards and superior policies. I know it is a bit Capraesque, but I can think of worse people to emulate than Frank Capra. (Oddly, I have never seen the entire Mr. Smith Goes to Washington movie although I am pretty well versed in other works of his.)
I am going to bow out, I have certainly had my chance to have my say. There does not seem to be any ambiguity left to debate. I hope I was able to point out a few truths, I certainly adjusted my views as a result of participation here. I only have one nagging issue left to address, but I am afraid it might touch off some replies. I will try to phase it better than my other points.
Perhaps we should consider the possibility that there are more than two horses in this race. Sure there is a ruby red one and a deep blue one. I would say on the far right of the field there is a black horse made of hate and violence that keeps trying to get into the red ones stall. There is surely an almost white one that might be made a little too much from hopes and dreams? There surely must be a purple one, maybe more than one purple one- a blueish purple and a reddish purple. I am asking that we be honest and put our best horse into the race, and that we be honest about the other horses. Last time we needed a somewhat purple blue horse. That is okay, being flexible is supposed to be a benefit in politics.
Other than Kinzinger, Cheney, and possibly Romney, Republican congresspeople have been silent about the biggest lie told to Americans since we’ve first voted for President.
Republican politicians are the Republicans with a voice, and they refuse to use it, so fuck them.
ISTM that the “red horse” has voluntarily offered to share its stall with the “black horse” in order to gain popularity with its fans. Sometimes the “red horse” gets a bit nervous and complains about the other guy, but in its overall behavior it is absolutely deeply complicit in what the “black horse” is doing.
I agree.
Any chance of getting that horse into its own gate soon? That’s what the authors want, I believe that is what we want too. The elected officials want the red horse to be the jockey for the black horse but that will never win a race.
Again, I agree. Republican congressional (and now that the judiciary is also political) and a good deal of the judicial branch are low-life cowardly criminals. I named quite a few upthread and recommend charging them as traitors. Does that have to mean ALL Republicans are criminal traitors?
Do I really have to keep up this volley? Is there no one else who can say one word in defense of the very few decent Republicans left? Must they all be found guilty with the crowd?
I don’t know. At this point I am not sure that the red horse even has the option of a viable existence anymore separate from the black horse. As in, two-halves-of-two-different-horses-sewn-together-“Frankenhorse” levels of codependency.