You keep missing that the Republicans who could have (it’s too late, BTW) done something were the elected ones who, to this day, don’t give a shit. Anyone in the general public who votes for these assholes is complicit. Not complicated.
Republicans by and large don’t believe in the integrity of our elections because they voted for a liar who lied to them. I’m tired of those assholes, and will not be sympathetic to them.
Yes, there are Republicans who are decent human beings, with views and positions that differ from mine - they are neighbors and a few of my own friends. And I get that the Party has stronger purity tests than do the Democrats. I think for this reason you will not find many Republican politicians advancing the idea that the election was not stolen - it’s pure convenience - I get that’s just how things work - it’s a purity test. And yes, I agree with @Temporary_Name that we should be encouraging Republican politicians with a spine and a pair to come forward and repudiate The Big Lie.
But to @bobot 's point - what the heck is taking so long? I want this report to give clearance for others to start coming out of the shadows and not be afraid of “getting primaried” for telling a truth. We’ll see if that comes to pass here.
My conservative friends in CA always lament how their candidates get stomped in elections. I keep telling them they are pushing forward the crazies that rile-up the base, but wont pass the smell-test for the voters who primarily vote D up and down the ballot. Smell-test is like the purity test - in this case anyone saying the election was stolen is not getting my vote, and that of a vast number of others. I am glad to consider any candidate with good ideas, but once they start with the bullshit I move on.
I’m curious what you think the Democratic Party is doing that is as bad or worse than the Republican assault on democracy and elections? When not even Republican primaries are safe from election fraud now, and voters are being fed lies constantly, what happens? What about laws being passed and officials saying they’ll ignore or subvert election results? You say to give two elections for a return to a more traditional party, but there might not be two elections.
I was listening to a podcast that mentioned polling or such that did indicate that hearing criticism from other Republicans did pursuade or affect other Republicans more. But I don’t have the study or other sources to back that up any further.
The hosts also talked about the 1/6 commission and how the Republican members are the lead speakers and guiding of the committee (at least on camera) and how that’s probably intentional.
I just don’t think “retired Federal judges” count. It would need to be media people or elected officials.
I can tell that you did not read my comments very thoroughly.
I have said many times in just this thread that I believe the left has the moral high ground on almost every single policy issue. My comments of: “You are no better than the Republicans” are based upon my genuine observations and I would say factually provable assertion that there are glaring similarities in the manner of proceeding between low information, knee-jerk Republicans and some members of this very board. Please, allow me to explain:
In the last ten or twelve years I have moved away from Republican politics and especially in the last six years I have embraced many policies and candidates, and initiatives from the left. But I am still associated with many, many Republican friends, neighbors, relatives, and associates who have remained Republican. A very large contingent of those former allies-- comrades in the Republican universe (some of whom raised me, whom I baby sat for, whom I shared bedrooms with and meals with celebrated holidays with) are very low information voters. They refuse to see anything they may disagree with, and I tend to pity them for being so narrow minded and so afraid that they might accidentally learn something that would upset their entire world view. It must be very sad to live with that kind of fear. I managed to break from it years ago and tried to look at things as objectively as possible and only then make my decisions based upon what I observed and measured and could determine through logic. I believe the policy of making a decision based on past generations, or Bible verses or just plain old tradition – and then trying to support it is a bad way to do things. I find being objective and studying a subject is more useful than trying to support a position you just fell into without thought.
So my low information Republican associates tend to believe that “ALL Democrats” are something. Many of them say “ALL Democrats are really Socialists trying to end our way of life!” Many of them also say: “ALL Democrats support a nanny state and know nothing of fiscal responsibility!” (Many of those particular associates also support Ayn Randian philosophies which I can assure they have never read and do not understand.) A few even say: “ALL Democrats are voting for child traffickers who are pedophiles and cannibals!”
Now I routinely try to set the record straight about the misunderstood issues (or outright lies) they are espousing, but mostly I try to get them to see that not “all Democrats” agree on anything!! I am trying to get them to grasp that everyone is an individual and that there is a vast difference between Joe Manchin and Joe Biden for example. And that despite both being older white haired guys-- Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders are not all that similar. But my Republican associates insist that yes, ALL Democrats are evil and liberal (like that was a bad thing) and identical. They all secretly want to institute the New Green Deal and all of AOC’s other utterly mad plans.
As you can imagine it is very frustrating to try for (in many cases) YEARS to get them to see that the left is not full of ideological clones whom ALL want to:
~ Take all the guns away
~ Extend the right to abortion to sixty-nine (69) months (the age of five)
~ Outlaw capital punishment (Stop killing the people the right to life crowd believes NEED to be killed)
~ Open our borders to murders, drug king pins, rapists, human traffickers, and other undesirables.
~ Etc.
My point is that beyond the frustrating lack of information on genuine issues is this universal belief that the other tribe is all made of evil, identical sub-humans who deserve whatever happens to them when the revolution starts. But they are low information dimwits, and I left them for a more refined, superior crowd who are accepting and non-judgmental. I now find myself in a group of people who are reasonable and contemplative-- not the knee-jerk reactionaries I had to leave.
And then this thread appeared and it was very obvious that most posters here are guilty of the very same sin. At least most posters here bothered to read a few pages before condemning absolutely every single Republican as guilty — for nothing more than remaining Republican. (There is what I believe is a very good story to illustrate this point in one of my posts above and I call it the Ernie story.)
I have found the pre-conceived judgments and assumptions about “ALL” Republicans to be a huge disappointment. THAT is what is similar- the fact that so many just hate the opposition so very much that even when the say the very thing that YOU (corporate you) say you want them to realize – you tar and feather them for it!!
When I pointed out that at least one of them has been calling Trump on his bullshit since two months BEFORE the election – that is dismissed. The obvious and sometimes even stated (talk about saying the silent part out loud!) view is: “Well, whatever! They are Republicans so they must be bad/guilty/wrong/conniving/etc. somehow!!!”
What utter bullshit from the open, accepting, thinking party!! That is why I have said over and over in this thread: “YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THEY ARE!” Because you are guilty of the same tribalism and hive mind and group think that makes them so reprehensible!! Still thinking about it pisses me off!
These people have condemned Trump, all of Trumps cronies and co-conspirators, the fraud lies, the coup attempt and have testified against Trump in the Hearings. They have taken it upon themselves to take all of the insane and disproven theories and DEBUNK THEM!!! They are not elected officials worried about re-election, they are some of the most advanced and important experts on jurisprudence in the entire Republican Party – and they flat out told the rest of the party that everything trump has been telling them are lies!!
They ARE saying exactly the same things we are saying, and they are saying it from inside the Party so they SHOULD be trusted (their bona fides are impeccable). So how do we respond to a few Republicans actually saying sane shit??? We condemn them for it!!
Brilliant! Maybe we could be even better at tribalism than the right is! But would that be a win for us? Fuck no!
[End breathing and relaxation exercises]:
I am quite certain that if any right minded, reasonably intelligent adult gets their own biases out of the way and reads this report (even the first few pages – the Introduction and the Executive Summary) that unbiased person would respond with something like: “This is the very first reasonable thing the opposition has said in years.” It is sane, it is very critical of Trump and flat out says his lies are intentional (in too soft language as one poster pointed out). I have not read the whole thing but the parts I have read seem well researched and very organized and these people are FAR more qualified to review things than Cyber Ninja ever dreamed of being!
So in all honesty, what I took away from the report was very encouraging to me. But what I took away from this thread is that there literally is NO difference between the manner of proceeding among Republicans and the manner of proceeding among posters on this board. I realized that both groups are so deeply invested in their own biases, that they completely lack the ability to be objective and truthful. I have been lamenting that fact about Republicans for years, but this thread is the first time I even suspected it about these posters I have admired.
One of the most disappointing things was when there was discussion and some concessions were made and these particular Republicans ONLY were seen as more fair minded and just. And then a day or two later the same ones who said: “Okay, perhaps I was too hasty” changed their attitude back to: “But they are REPUBLICANS (for fuck’s sake is the sub-text I read into it), they MUST be wrong!!”
I want to ask everyone who has posted in this thread to re-read the Introduction and the Executive Summary after doing everything they can to recognize and neutralize their own biases. But first-- please look-up and view Tim Minchin’s Nine Life Lessons first. I admire Mr. Minchin a great deal and I try (and often fail) to live up to those lessons and sincerely wish more people would give them a listen.
Lastly, I know I sound like a pompous ass often. I assure that is not how I view myself, I have a rather limited educational background- but I still try to be fair and reasonable and well informed. I can be quite stubborn when I believe I am better informed and I can say this with a certain amount of assurance: Not all Republicans are evil and corrupt, please give these few guys- the authors of this case study- the benefit of the doubt and read their finding in as neutral a voice as you can muster. I bet most of you will find it quite satisfying.
And to answer your first sentence- I am not saying the Democratic Party is as bad or worse than the Republican Party. I am saying those I have been respecting on this message board have disappointed me by being as partisan and narrow minded as many Republicans of my acquaintance. No need to make this a national issue (although perhaps parallels could be drawn?), what I am saying is this: My progressive friends on this board can be as stubborn and tribal as my Republican associates are in real life. I just never would have imagined it a short while ago.
To me this sounds a bit like- don’t trust the certified mechanic who just inspected your car! Instead trust the people who advertise selling the brand of car you drive.
How is being a retired Federal judge less impressive than [person who who has never been elected to anything or even practiced law- but can read news off a teleprompter]??? Or even less impressive than a local elected official? By that logic, Donald Trump was elected to the highest office in the land so we should listen to him, not to the guy whose whole job was to remain neutral and impartial and hear both sides before rendering a decision.
It’s not that the federal judge is a less impressive intellect than the news reader, it’s that retired federal judges are unknown and have no way of reaching people. If Tucker Carlson started saying the election wasn’t stolen and Trump is a liar, it would have a bigger effect than all the retired conservative federal judges singing that out in unison.
The first effect would be to get Carlson fired, probably.
Okay, I get it now.
Yes, you and MandaJo are right about that. I just have difficult time adjusting to the fact that a dipshit like Tucker Carlson has more reach and more influence than some genuine impressive legal minds. I suppose it is similar to the influence that Kim Kardashian has (the one from California- not the ones from the Neutral Zone).
That is why so many were up in arms over Mr. Potato Head, Dr. Seuss, and Elmo getting vaccinated-- you know, the really hard hitting news of this era.
It would almost seem like (in the event that society survives and reason is ever restored on the right and all across the land) things are going to have to evolve. Similar to when child labor laws were enacted to correct a great injustice in our society – slander and liable laws are just not enough any longer. When an entire so called “News Organization” is intentionally misleading people (especially vulnerable people), and entire wings of the political spectrum are outright lying – something MUST be done!
When Tucker Carlson can use the excuse: “I am not a journalist, I am an entertainer giving opinion.” in court and effing win!! That kind of thing should be strongly condemned (and not just by the opposition, by courts and civil as well as criminal laws)
To your point, more republicans probably listen to Sydney Powell than listen to these guys. What a sorry effin’ mess!!!
Yes, I can see that and I do pity them as well. I have a cousin who’s fallen into the Faux News trap and haven’t talked to him since before the end of the 2016 campaign.
The problem is we don’t have time to talk them off of the ledge. They are supporting Trump and the autocrats who think like him now. They are voting for the same now. They are actively trying to suppress those who would vote against them now. The thought that they will wind up in the smoking ruin of this country saying, “gee that’s not what I wanted at all,” is no comfort to me.
Well ,
Senator John Danforth
Benjamin Ginsberg
The Honorable Thomas B. Griffith
David Hoppe
The Honorable J. Michael Luttig
The Honorable Michael W. McConnell
The Honorable Theodore B. Olson
Senator Gordon H. Smith
Are hardly household names, at least nationwide, although the Senators likely have some name recognition in their states (Danforth in office as a senator until 1995, Smith from Oregon until 2009).
As respectable and qualified as they are, it means little compared to what influence Tucker or Powell have in media or the public awareness.
(Danforth has also criticized the Republican party in 2005 which is probably why he’s no longer in politics. He also supported Josh Hawley to run, calling it his greatest mistake)
Thanks for your reasoned arguments Temporary_Name.
Millions of Republicans are honest decent people - just not very loud. In the last election, they stood up as election volunteers and officials and denounced claims of fraud. Unfortunately, many were replaced for their courageous stand.
What I’d like to see is current, in-power office holders come out of the closet abyss. “The election was not stolen.” “There was no fraud”. “DT lost by millions of votes.” “It’s was a big lie.” “I, as House Republican leader will not seat any representatives that espouse a belief in fraud, stolen elections, or that DT is the legitimate president.” Okay, that last one is a bit much to hope for.
As I see it, we have a lost population completely bound up in cultish behavior. Drain circulating white supremacists, evangelicals dreaming of an apocalypse, low information voters manipulated by Murdoch’s media and reinforced by social online groups; they are distraught reacting with almost unbridled hate towards anyone with a contrary view [with more than a little violence]. These groups are the untouchables. 25%, perhaps 30% of Republicans. Beyond reach.
I completely agree with the entire post. My only contention is that this study or debunking or whatever is also trying to rid the GOP of the Trump mess. Yes elements will always remain, but as we have discussed before, these sheep will do whatever Tucker Carlson tells them to-- these backroom Republicans are trying to do that too.
I agree and I think it is a shame. Of course I know a few on the left who see the entire world through the lens of Rachel Maddow and would never contradict her (not me personally- she is only one of many news sources for me). My only point is that (presuming the Republic holds- well, survives intact) we are going to win this in the long run and we are going to be on the right side of history. There is no need for us to lump ALL Republicans into the same stew. These guys are the first (perhaps) to emerge from the ooze- let’s be gracious and welcoming. No need to persecute them for being right- or for being less inclined toward the spotlight than other less moral characters.
This is the crux of it right here. Kitzinger routinely says his fellow Republican congresspersons refuse to state the truth they know and justify it by saying that clinging to power gives them hope to fight another day. I especially hate McConnell for refusing to vote to convict on the impeachment – and then twenty minutes later giving a speech condemning Trump for the VERY THING for which he just let him off the hook. McCarthy is little different-- neither of them could recognize leadership if it smacked them in the face!! The entire rest of Republicans on the Federal level are even more to blame because they have less to lose.
The elected Republicans need to fight like Ukrainians here. Accept the odds and step up to defend the homeland (which USED to mean Personal Responsibility, Honor, Decency, Etc. in the Republican Party) But instead they turned on the truth tellers and expunged them from their ranks for the courage they showed. I hope this paper from people the elected officials AUGHT to know (who knows if MTG, Bobert, and Gaetz “know” anything at all) might give them the courage to also resist the MAGA chants.
Here I disagree a little. I know these people (well, many of them) and I am always surprised when they just change a stance based upon FOX News changing their message. I think it is closer to between 8% and 15% who are permanently unreachable. Unfortunately their kids will also be unreachable because that level of hatred, ignorance, bigotry are demonstrated and reinforced on a daily- maybe hourly basis and they go to great lengths to be sure no reasonable person has any chance to influence their kids until they have finished sixth grade at the age of twenty.
The other half can be turned-- but they will always be ready to revert and will be the first in line if a candidate similar to trump appears. as long as no one is stirring them up- they can be only annoyingly right wing but not fully insane and destructive. Ready to revert if and when the opportunity presents itself, but declawed for the moment - - - but ONLY after FOX tells them to think something else. Those are the ones I was saying have no mind of their own.
Thanks to all for the responses and opportunity to express my thoughts.
You keep saying this as though it were some sort of courageous intellectual achievement. Those claims were already thoroughly debunked within weeks of their being made. Pretending, in 2022, that they merited yet another investigation just to make REALLY sure they were all BS, is ridiculous. And it’s not like they’re the very first Republicans to come out against the Big Lie. Who exactly is going to be convinced by Ben Ginsburg who wasn’t convinced by Liz Cheney?
So you guys are debating whether the democracy-hating Big Lie fascists are 30% of the Republican party, or maybe only 8%. Meanwhile, they keep winning almost all the Republican primaries by huge margins. 
Face it, the vast majority of your party knows very well what is going on and they are perfectly OK with it.
To Godwize the thread, it’s reminding me of what happened in Weimar Germany. The elites in that country thought the SA bully-boys would be useful in ridding the country of the Socialist and Communist threat. After that they would be dispensed with and the German Republic would skip happily into a glorious future.
As anyone who’s studied anything about that period knows, it did not work out that way. Röhm, the SA leader and more of an idealogue than a fan of Hitler, was threatening to eliminate the elites, particularly in the Reichswehr, the regular army. Instead, after a propaganda war, the SS murdered Röhm and decapitated the leadership of the SA, the Reichswehr cozied up to the NSDAP, and murder became an acceptable political tool.
I foresee a Rwanda-like future for the USA, with Loyal Trumpist hunting and killing their own neighbors who are suspected of not being loyal enough to Dear Leader.
Welcome to the discussion. You may benefit from reading what has already been said.
I recommend reading the entire thread, each post, but perhaps starting with the link provided in both post number ninety-one (#91) and before that in post number seventy-six (#76). In any case, thank you for your comment.
“…the vast majority of your party…” The vast majority of MY party???
First, the GOP is no longer my party- has not been for quite some time, and I would defy you to prove that any regular voter member of The Republican Party knows - - - well, anything!
My point is that many Republicans of my acquaintance are not very good at making ANY decisions for themselves. Many of them prefer to have a minister, or a politician, or a TV pundit – or some combination of all three like Mike Huckabee tell them what to think. I believe to my core that if Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity and any other right wing pundit say Trump is over – then he is over within a week or two. In my observations, those people have the ability to say: “I never said that and I never supported that person”, only to show them saying the thing and supporting the person a few weeks or months previously. Whatever they believe to be true right now is what they believe and they have the complete cognitive dissonance to believe they never believed the exact opposite previously.
Trump is already (by which I mean finally after the last two years) losing influence. His two biggest enemies that he demonized in Georgia won by huge margins, and the senatorial candidate who did win is all assuring a Democratic win in the General.
Likewise, in Pennsylvania Dr. OZ squeaked by with trump’s endorsement and he is well on his way to be squashed by the Democratic candidate.
Tomorrow I am going to vote for Trump’s endorsed gubernatorial candidate because she will be a weaker candidate to face my preferred candidate who is something of a shoe-in in her race. In short, the more Trump wins-- the more the Republican Party loses.
Honest to God I just sent an e-mail to friend (who happens to be running a race for a candidate in your LD as it turns out) about two hours ago! Speaking about unintended consequences is often a topic of discussion for us.
I can imagine it, but I do not yet foresee it (as even likely).
Some Republican elected official needs to have this assigned to him or her by all the late night hosts and others as a nickname!! Until then, not a bad band name.
The Tutsi didn’t think it was likely either.
There’s little recent polling, but in June Fetterman was ahead by 5 points averaging two polls. That’s a lead but not a squash.
Fetterman is a good candidate, but I can see ticket splitters, who only want to vote for one Democrat, saying that Mastriano is too extreme but Oz is acceptable.
I keep on waiting for the Trumpers to reach their sell-by date, but the polls don’t show it.
Thank you for your snide condescension. I have read the whole thread (well, I didn’t waste my time slogging through every word of your posts, of course!) and neither of the links you mention are at all relevant. In fact, they go to prove my point, that a tiny fraction of Republicans have been denouncing Trump for years, and it hasn’t done a bit of good so far. But now, with the added moral authority of a couple guys who were in the Senate decades ago, that’s all going to change? Pull the other one, it’s got bells on.